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  1. #41
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am curious did it drop the graduation rates of Ns at the same time as the S graduation rates went-up? Or did the N grad. rate stay constant?
    I think it's study 12 on this list. His descriptions of students are really fun too.
    Richard Felder's Education-Related Publications
    edcoaching

  2. #42
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    Just because Ns tend to get better grades or higher test scores doesn't necessarily mean that the system is skewed to favor Ns. It may, as distasteful as it feels, actually mean that Ns tend to be smarter and/or find learning easier. Most Ns in the U.S. would probably IME agree that the system feels extremely S biased with all its emphasis on rote learning.
    Yeah, N's have to survive or get out of rote atmospheres. Thing is, higher you go, the less there is of that unless an N decides to major in something that continues in that vein. Most N's who make it to college find it much more appealing.

    As for smartness...depends on what you're testing for. Exiting med school, S's tend to do better on the practical assessments and N's on the theoretical. One med school just added an emotional intelligence assessment--as in bedside manner--and are finding most of their students are failing it. What kind of smarts are we asking for and are we assessing properly for it?
    edcoaching

  3. #43
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    What kind of smarts are we asking for and are we assessing properly for it?
    Thats fine, but its important to be sure that we're not altering the assessment just because we don't like the results. If you focus on leveling the playing field, the danger is that maybe instead you just dilute the intelligence/talent in that field.

    Do want only less talented doctors that are nicer?

  4. #44
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    Thats fine, but its important to be sure that we're not altering the assessment just because we don't like the results. If you focus on leveling the playing field, the danger is that maybe instead you just dilute the intelligence/talent in that field.

    Do want only less talented doctors that are nicer?
    Given that bedside manner actually affects patient recovery, and that patients with different type preferences need different things from their doctor (Brock and Allen) then doctors need to have both. They're the only ones I go to...

    Here's another way to look at it. A colleague of mine has done this experiment with over 20 groups of educators. They divide into S, N, T, and F groups (not based on reported, assessed type, but on best-fit after training in type...) and as groups, come up with the best test question they can to assess students on a given body of knowledge. In each case, each group has come up with questions that are biased in favor of their own learning style. S's are fact-based, N's are what-if or global, T's are prove/disprove, and F's somehow involve impact on people. So...if assessors aren't aware of their own biases, the assessment results may not have anything to do with ability or intelligence...
    edcoaching

  5. #45
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    Do want only less talented doctors that are nicer?
    I would. There is no notable better care from better educated (ie: "Top schools") or more intelligent doctors. More to the point, I'd rather be diagnosed by a computer for a lot of ailments, than with any doctor of any skill level. This may be in part because of universal standardized testing.

    Intelligence requirements establishes a floor on capabilities. Above that, it ceases to be a good proxy for ability.

    Regarding the testing re: N/S part, medical doctors do not have a high enough IQ to cause an imbalance of Ns over Ss. For clarity, I'm saying IQ does matter in general, however it does not seem to be much of a barrier for the medical profession.

  6. #46
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    A brilliant doctor isn't much good if he won't listen to patients. My doctor isn't probably brilliant, but she listens and if she doesn't know what's going on, she refers.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #47
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    My situation was very similar to yours, Kyuuei, when I was growing up. I grew up with my grandparents, who were retired at the time and made an average of 20-30k a year, 3k of which went towards private education per year. We were just far enough above the financial aid bracket to not qualify for help, but we earned too little, so it REALLY hurt.

    My family basically made the following deal with me: You do not have to get a job and earn money (even though we could really use it) if you promise to get good grades and study hard. They even eased up on me and did not expect me to do chores.

    The concept was: If you get excellent grades, you will get a very good scholarship to go to university. If you do not, we cannot send you to university. So forget working and just study hard so you can get ahead.

    I had so much inner drive, that I often forgot to eat and drink, much less have a life. I was so driven that most people thought I was some kinda crazy IXTJ for a long-ass time. Trust me, when you have that kind of pressure on you, you do not need money. You feel like shit if you get anything less than perfect because you know how much your family is sacrificing to give you all they can.

    Of course most people don't grow up under those conditions, so I GUESS they need some kind of external force to push them (especially if they are E's and the force does not come from the circumstances, as in my case).

    But I'm hesitant to say that MONEY is the correct answer. I mean, isn't our society and aren't our kids sooooo focused on materialism? Shouldn't this be a kind of 'survival of the fittest' where the brightest and the most capable succeed?

    I'm not sure if money should fit into the equation. For people that have a lot of money, this point is moot because they don't even need the money. For people without money, the point is moot because they don't have the money.

    So we're basically talking about - excuse me for the crass term - yuppie and upper-middle class to middle-class parents who wonder how to get kids off their asses and work. Pfft...I don't know. I had thought that by that time you would have taught your children the values of hard work and studying WITHOUT financial compensation just by your OWN good example. Heh.

    On the other hand, I have no kids, and I was raised very *very* traditionally (since my grandparents raised me), so I have some wacked-out and old-fashioned views regarding raising kids, I guess. That's why I'm anxious about having them because I damned well have no idea how someone can do it in this day and age. So I could very well be talking out my ass, farting, and saying crap.

    *shrugs* I don't know. It just doesn't sit well with me.
    I feel you entirely. High school I had no life, I didn't go out to Galveston Island to party on the weekends, the MOST I did was the occasional school event or a movie if I earned enough through babysitting. My parents were stuck both working to make enough money to get us by, and even then we've still had to spend much of our lives avoiding collection calls until we have enough money to give them up until recently.

    I was always volunteering myself to stay and watch the house and my youngest ones so that they could have fun and do what they wanted. I never thought twice of it. My grades were my job, and since I wasn't working, I felt like I HAD to be good at my job so that it would be one less burden on my parents. But I was able to see their plight.. not all kids are mature like that. And Not all parents WANT them to see plight and such. I know my parents still regret that they had to rely on me so much back then, even if I didn't mind it and it probably helped me be responsible and hard-working later on.

    I think if you're in a position to do it, and your kid needs a bit of positive encouragement, it's not a bad thing.. but I think I would do something else instead. Like maybe pay them a small allowance for chores, but when it came to school good grades would mean movie nights, or new books or a name-brand shirt from a store. (Those were a BIG deal for me growing up, since I had nothing but hand-me-downs most of my life. To get a shirt bought just for me was something I put a value at when I was young, it was a special thing to me.)

    With that said.. Your kids are hopefully more mature and intelligent than simply work + good grades = moneyYAY! through the parenting you've done in their whole lives prior to all of that. MAking sure you kids grow up with values, manners, and such. Most of the young boys I see now-a-days don't even do the little things like take their hats off in church and such! I was even told to do that when I was younger.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    A brilliant doctor isn't much good if he won't listen to patients. My doctor isn't probably brilliant, but she listens and if she doesn't know what's going on, she refers.
    My doctor seems to be a good balance. He tells me straight up--even when it was bad news.. and albeit he isn't too sympathetic or anything, I sort of don't care. He's not my friend, he's there to tell me wtf is wrong with me and leave me to it. So long as he gets it right and I get fixed and healed I don't mind how their personalities are.

  8. #48
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    . Most Ns in the U.S. would probably IME agree that the system feels extremely S biased with all its emphasis on rote learning.
    i agree with that. i had very little drive when i was in the early stages of high school because nothing was interesting to me. i got ok grades, lots of B's and C's, but tbh i was relying on my talents and just went into cruise control. everything was rote learning and just couldn't focus with shit like that. eventually, it became more and more about concepts and i got more and more comfortable with school. make no mistake though, i didn't need to wait till year 12 for that stuff. kinda wish i learned more conceptual stuff from primary school.

  9. #49
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    I wish I could find a way to charge everyone's kids for getting bad grades.

  10. #50
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not_Me View Post
    I wish I could find a way to charge everyone's kids for getting bad grades.
    Why?

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