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  1. #31
    Resident Snot-Nose GZA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    This analysis is very Americanized, though. It doesn't even translate to Canada.

    Our trade schools are called "College" (as opposed to University, which is not the same thing) and though they're not as theoretical, you come out of there with a solid job (it's lined up for you) and solid professional wages, usually enough to raise a family on.

    Being that our systems are different, though I'd suspect more xSxPs go the College route in our country, I'd also suspect it's far more diversified than what Americans would experience in their differently set up schools.

    We still have our British influence--University has always been more "edification for the purpose of enlightenment" rather than pragmatic--this whole "University for career preparation" stuff only began occurring in Canada after the Free Trade Agreement in 1989. As such, our University attendance is a fraction of yours, and far more people of all types choose the pragmatic College route.
    We also don't have SAT and other sort of standardized measures. We just use grades and maybe stuff like what extra caricular stuff you did, but only soemtimes. Another difference is that we don't care aboutt he specific school as much, but the degree. In the US in seems if you went to Harvard or whatever it's a big deal and theirs so much reputation so you look good, in here it's just having the degree and the knowledge, while the reputation of schools is a lot more understated and almost secretive.

  2. #32
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Mmhm. My familiy isn't rich at all, but I never felt pressured to get good grades. I mean, getting good grades is one of the easiest things to do here on earth. Free climbing is something difficult
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  3. #33
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    All I have is anecdotal evidence but there are some things I will disagree with here. I know a lot of SJ's and SP's who did really well on the SAT. They were either
    a.) bright- and yes there are lot of bright Sensors as there are a lot of not-so-bright iNtuitives.
    b.) spent THOUSANDS of dollars on SAT prep!!!!

    A lot of people say that the SAT is a "follow your gut" test but I don't think I had to do that at all. If anything I'd say that my Ti (strong analytical skills) helped me a lot more than my Ne.

    I'm happy I got my sky-high SAT score for near free (well, I paid money to take the test and I did take the PSAT.. twice.)
    But the Merit scholarships go to the top 1%--and of course 18% or so of those are Sensing types. The SAT doesn't measure intelligence, anyway, only how well you will do the first 6 months of college (that's what it was designed to do if you read the official literature on it). The playing field narrowed a bit when the test dumped the analogy section, the true N playing field. Move down from the top 1-2% and you'll find lots of S's, yes.

    And the prep can improve scores. If your goal is to get into a college that insists on high scores, then the $ spent are worth it, I guess.
    edcoaching

  4. #34
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    edcoaching,

    Not that I don't trust the results but I am curious to where you got the studies from. I notice that you had a couple other posts with results from research and I'm curious to see if there are any true relationships between type preferences and abilities/beliefs.
    SATs don't measure intelligence or abilities; the test was designed to help predict how well students will do their first six months of college.

    There's actually an Isabel Briggs Memorial Library at www.capt.org. The bibliography is online but you have to request and pay small copy charges to actually read anything--or go to Gainesville. The MBTI manual (another print-only document) summarizes all kinds of studies.

    The PSAT/merit scholar info has been verified in several studies and it pretty much comes down to the N advantage on analogies and the fact that you are penalized for guessing. N's trust their hunches; S's get more and more nervous.

    The SAT information came from a study of 9000 students in MA where the SAT publishers gave the researchers item-by-item responses for all the students. They only compared students who had the course prep, AP classes etc., and the predictor of score variance was type. Again, it came down to the items on which more students were guessing. This study was before they removed the analogy section from the SAT which helps S's some.

    But the truth still remains that it's a biased test. Isabel Myers did the first studies on it back in the 1960's when the real MBTI was actually published by ETS, who also publish the SAT. She pointed out the biases and they didn't like her results. Most likely (and people who have worked there have said this is true) the test designers were mostly Intuitive and designed it with their definition of intelligence/college skills in mind.
    edcoaching

  5. #35
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Man. Where are all these schools that don't emphasize rote learning? I go to UCB now and still have the same issue.
    Hooray for small liberal arts colleges. International Baccalaureate schools. (Sometimes) high schools located near research universities or in college towns where there are enough professor's kids who push for inquiry-based learning.

    Some AP high schools pull it off.
    edcoaching

  6. #36
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alicia91 View Post
    Wow, I didn't know we were such academic failures. I was in gifted classes in elementary and middle school and in all advanced classes in high school. I was also on the honor roll and got into the Uni of my choice. Hmm...guess I'm an exception.

    I don't pay my kids for grades but I usually buy them a nice gift or take them on a trip if they've done well at school.
    • Well, only a small part of the population ends up in those alternative high schools--and they exist to contain behavior, not academic, problems. So of course tons of SPs succeed in schools
    • One study interviewed students about how they got into trouble and a lot of the SPs admitted to spontaneous experiments: "If I do this, what will the teacher do?" If it became a habit, they spent a lot of time in the principal's office.
    • A large percentage of elementary teachers are SJ and they're the type most likely to see the above SP behavior as disobedient rather than kinda natural kid stuff, setting the SPs of the world up for trouble. Again, lots figure out how to play the game.


    Another way to say it is that all types have ways of getting into trouble at school (well, all but a couple types...). The SP style, though, is most likely to result in getting into trouble with consequences. Watch Cool Hand Luke to see what I mean. EN's tend to be more scheming about it and may either never get caught or scheme in such ways that the admin look like idiots and nothing is done. INs read books in the back of the room and even if they get kicked out for doing it, it's not the same kind of trouble. Or, they simply refuse to do dumb assignments and fail, but they don't care.
    edcoaching

  7. #37
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    ecoachin, there's a fundamental problem with every theory that claims that N types score higher on IQ tests/SAT tests than S types:

    often the questions used to determine whether a person is N or S directly tie into how smart the person is, which means that very often smart sensors score as intuitives (on MBTI). This obviously biases these types of research.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  8. #38
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    ecoachin, there's a fundamental problem with every theory that claims that N types score higher on IQ tests/SAT tests than S types:

    often the questions used to determine whether a person is N or S directly tie into how smart the person is, which means that very often smart sensors score as intuitives (on MBTI). This obviously biases these types of research.
    Get a room of educators together who haven't just taken an inventory to determine their type but have verified it through experiential exercises and study. Divide them into S and N groups to talk about their experiences with grades and with standardized tests. You will find a higher % of N's who scored high on the standardized tests without a whole lot of prep. You will find a higher % of S's who got fantastic grades and did worse than they expected to on the standardized tests--seeing their scores they felt like they'd been kicked in the stomach. Obviously there will be some exceptions on each side.

    I do not think N's are smarter than S's. I think that the US education system, at least, is biased in favor of Intuition. I don't really want to argue about whether the design of the study overidentified S's as N's because that takes the focus off the fact that the system is still putting more S's at risk and with our Merit Scholar system, a whole lot of scholarship $$ is at stake.

    Another example is out of North Carolina State. Federer, an engineering professor, taught type to his students and soon the school realized that N's were graduating in engineering at a much higher rate than S's. They changed the course sequence so that the first classes were more hands on rather than abstract/theoretical and equaled the graduation rate.

    That's what I want to see happen everywhere--recognize type biases in how things are being taught/assessed and level the playing field !!
    edcoaching

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Another example is out of North Carolina State. Federer, an engineering professor, taught type to his students and soon the school realized that N's were graduating in engineering at a much higher rate than S's. They changed the course sequence so that the first classes were more hands on rather than abstract/theoretical and equaled the graduation rate.

    That's what I want to see happen everywhere--recognize type biases in how things are being taught/assessed and level the playing field !!
    I am curious did it drop the graduation rates of Ns at the same time as the S graduation rates went-up? Or did the N grad. rate stay constant?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    I do not think N's are smarter than S's. I think that the US education system, at least, is biased in favor of Intuition.
    Just because Ns tend to get better grades or higher test scores doesn't necessarily mean that the system is skewed to favor Ns. It may, as distasteful as it feels, actually mean that Ns tend to be smarter and/or find learning easier. Most Ns in the U.S. would probably IME agree that the system feels extremely S biased with all its emphasis on rote learning.

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