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  1. #21
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    I personally support the idea that parents should show their children that they appreciate academic success- especially at a young age. It becomes something that the child remembers as he or she grows older. Moderation is the key. One shouldn't spoil the child too much or you will become like one of those 'rich bitches' or 'rich man-bitches' that attend my university.

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Except I wasn't generalizing. The stuff came from research. However...INTJs and INFJs will shut down at any school that emphasizes rote learning over anaysis/synthesis/construction of knowledge and doesn't allow for independent pursuit of topics of interest. Unfortunately, most AP courses emphasize rote learning (there are fantastic exceptions but usually it's cram for the test). Here's what a whole ton of studies show:
    • INTJs and INFJs have the highest GPAs on average, with ISTJs close behind.
    • INFPs and INTPs have higher IQs (not that this measures intelligence but it does correlate with the junk that schools usually honor as thinking skills)
    • SP's make up about 90% of students in alternative schools. Note that not that high a % of the population ends up in alternative high schools but it shows how little the needs of these students are met...
    • Although 75% of the population prefers Sensing, 82% of the Merit Scholarships, based on the PSAT, go to Intuitives. This is after leveling the playing field for who's taken the most AP classes. On the SAT, there's a 250 point average difference between the highest-scoring type and lowest-scoring. The test is extremely biased in favor of the Intuitive style fo guessing. It was written by Intuitives...
    • EPs are most likely to be misdiagnosed as ADHD;IPs as ADD. All types can have these conditions but the misdiagnosis usually falls in these categories.


    What I'm seeing is more and more rote learning in the wake of No Child Left Behind, demotivating rather than improving the performance of bright children of every type...
    All I have is anecdotal evidence but there are some things I will disagree with here. I know a lot of SJ's and SP's who did really well on the SAT. They were either
    a.) bright- and yes there are lot of bright Sensors as there are a lot of not-so-bright iNtuitives.
    b.) spent THOUSANDS of dollars on SAT prep!!!!

    A lot of people say that the SAT is a "follow your gut" test but I don't think I had to do that at all. If anything I'd say that my Ti (strong analytical skills) helped me a lot more than my Ne.

    I'm happy I got my sky-high SAT score for near free (well, I paid money to take the test and I did take the PSAT.. twice.)
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  2. #22
    Magical Firelie's Avatar
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    My parents gave my brother and I $10 for every A and $5 for every B, but we never did it for the money; it was just a nice bonus after getting straight A's.

  3. #23
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Except I wasn't generalizing. The stuff came from research. However...INTJs and INFJs will shut down at any school that emphasizes rote learning over anaysis/synthesis/construction of knowledge and doesn't allow for independent pursuit of topics of interest. Unfortunately, most AP courses emphasize rote learning (there are fantastic exceptions but usually it's cram for the test). Here's what a whole ton of studies show:
    • INTJs and INFJs have the highest GPAs on average, with ISTJs close behind.
    • INFPs and INTPs have higher IQs (not that this measures intelligence but it does correlate with the junk that schools usually honor as thinking skills)
    • SP's make up about 90% of students in alternative schools. Note that not that high a % of the population ends up in alternative high schools but it shows how little the needs of these students are met...
    • Although 75% of the population prefers Sensing, 82% of the Merit Scholarships, based on the PSAT, go to Intuitives. This is after leveling the playing field for who's taken the most AP classes. On the SAT, there's a 250 point average difference between the highest-scoring type and lowest-scoring. The test is extremely biased in favor of the Intuitive style fo guessing. It was written by Intuitives...
    • EPs are most likely to be misdiagnosed as ADHD;IPs as ADD. All types can have these conditions but the misdiagnosis usually falls in these categories.


    What I'm seeing is more and more rote learning in the wake of No Child Left Behind, demotivating rather than improving the performance of bright children of every type...
    This analysis is very Americanized, though. It doesn't even translate to Canada.

    Our trade schools are called "College" (as opposed to University, which is not the same thing) and though they're not as theoretical, you come out of there with a solid job (it's lined up for you) and solid professional wages, usually enough to raise a family on.

    Being that our systems are different, though I'd suspect more xSxPs go the College route in our country, I'd also suspect it's far more diversified than what Americans would experience in their differently set up schools.

    We still have our British influence--University has always been more "edification for the purpose of enlightenment" rather than pragmatic--this whole "University for career preparation" stuff only began occurring in Canada after the Free Trade Agreement in 1989. As such, our University attendance is a fraction of yours, and far more people of all types choose the pragmatic College route.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  4. #24
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    edcoaching,

    Not that I don't trust the results but I am curious to where you got the studies from. I notice that you had a couple other posts with results from research and I'm curious to see if there are any true relationships between type preferences and abilities/beliefs.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    there's always the issue of what happens when you go through a bad patch and don't manage to get any A's? does your social life take a dive because the money you've been able to rely on getting stops? do you punish yourself and feel like a failure and a loser? do you worry that your parents don't love you/aren't proud of you unless you're a straight A student?

    Actually my parents did the opposite of encouraging me, but I got straight A's all through school... I sorta did it despite them, not because of. I looked at the way they were and said "I don't want to be like that", and that motivated me plenty.
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  6. #26
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    Except I wasn't generalizing. The stuff came from research. However...INTJs and INFJs will shut down at any school that emphasizes rote learning over anaysis/synthesis/construction of knowledge and doesn't allow for independent pursuit of topics of interest. Unfortunately, most AP courses emphasize rote learning (there are fantastic exceptions but usually it's cram for the test). Here's what a whole ton of studies show:
    [LIST][*]INTJs and INFJs have the highest GPAs on average, with ISTJs close behind.
    Man. Where are all these schools that don't emphasize rote learning? I go to UCB now and still have the same issue.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Enyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royal Xavier View Post
    Recently an online friend of mine, whom I know fairly well, said that for a few years when she was in school her parents payed her every time she got an A. She payed them the same amount for every B she got. Normally I don't get worked up about money-related issues, but for some reason this didn't sit well with me...maybe it's because my family isn't exactly rich and I've never gotten payed despite the fact that I make mostly A's and a few B's. That was my first reaction, anyway.

    But the more I think about it, the more glad I am that they don't pay me...something seems wrong about bribing your kids to get them ahead. If they're as smart as you want them to be, then shouldn't they be able to do this on their own, without getting money involved? On the other hand, if it was actually her idea and she asked them to pay her for making good grades, doesn't that still sort of make it all a lie?

    I guess the reason I'm so confused about it is that she's a fairly intelligent and principled person whom I wouldn't expect to get involved with it if it were bad...so am I wrong?
    Now that my son is in middle school, I pay him $5 per A. He lives on the other side of the continent, so I don't get to do a lot of the day-to-day stuff with him. I'll help him with his homework over the phone and encourage him, but that's pretty much it.

    He didn't ask me to pay him, and at that amount, it's not enough to be a bribe, but more of a recognition of good work. For my son, though, he's very smart, but also very lazy about doing his homework. He's getting better now, though, since he's beginning to understand that there is a correlation between good grades and getting into a good school and scholarships.
    "If you can't be a good example, you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning." Catherine Aird

  8. #28
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I never got paid for grades, I was definitely pressured due to poor finances in our family back then, but I was always fearful of bad grades instead of trying to learn from them and move on. It sort of undermined my confidence a bit. I felt like a mistake was fatal almost, like I would surely choke upon entering my home instead of simply thinking "That sucks! Now I don't get that comic book I wanted!" or something.

    The thing is, "bribing" albeit an accurate word may be necessary. Children need motivation, and I sure as shit did NOT value my education the way I do now back then. I did it out of fear, not because I had any positive value for school. I think that would have made my school career a lot easier.



    Right. School is your career, and incentives must be there for anyone to succeed at anything, if you have no goal to work toward you won't want to work at all. The diploma is not always the thing most valued, even though they might value it and appreciate the effort put into it later on, it wasn't the focal point for me in school.
    My situation was very similar to yours, Kyuuei, when I was growing up. I grew up with my grandparents, who were retired at the time and made an average of 20-30k a year, 3k of which went towards private education per year. We were just far enough above the financial aid bracket to not qualify for help, but we earned too little, so it REALLY hurt.

    My family basically made the following deal with me: You do not have to get a job and earn money (even though we could really use it) if you promise to get good grades and study hard. They even eased up on me and did not expect me to do chores.

    The concept was: If you get excellent grades, you will get a very good scholarship to go to university. If you do not, we cannot send you to university. So forget working and just study hard so you can get ahead.

    I had so much inner drive, that I often forgot to eat and drink, much less have a life. I was so driven that most people thought I was some kinda crazy IXTJ for a long-ass time. Trust me, when you have that kind of pressure on you, you do not need money. You feel like shit if you get anything less than perfect because you know how much your family is sacrificing to give you all they can.

    Of course most people don't grow up under those conditions, so I GUESS they need some kind of external force to push them (especially if they are E's and the force does not come from the circumstances, as in my case).

    But I'm hesitant to say that MONEY is the correct answer. I mean, isn't our society and aren't our kids sooooo focused on materialism? Shouldn't this be a kind of 'survival of the fittest' where the brightest and the most capable succeed?

    I'm not sure if money should fit into the equation. For people that have a lot of money, this point is moot because they don't even need the money. For people without money, the point is moot because they don't have the money.

    So we're basically talking about - excuse me for the crass term - yuppie and upper-middle class to middle-class parents who wonder how to get kids off their asses and work. Pfft...I don't know. I had thought that by that time you would have taught your children the values of hard work and studying WITHOUT financial compensation just by your OWN good example. Heh.

    On the other hand, I have no kids, and I was raised very *very* traditionally (since my grandparents raised me), so I have some wacked-out and old-fashioned views regarding raising kids, I guess. That's why I'm anxious about having them because I damned well have no idea how someone can do it in this day and age. So I could very well be talking out my ass, farting, and saying crap.

    *shrugs* I don't know. It just doesn't sit well with me.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member V Profane's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with incentivising kids to try harder with their studies, which is what 'paying' them is. Particularly if they, like my younger self, were rightfully disillusioned by the knee-high bullshit compulsory education forces children to wade through.

    In later life it's much easier to see the value of education, knowledge and learning for it's own sake. I think most kids could use all the encouragement they can get to make the most of what, for them, is often a bad situation.

  10. #30
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    SP's make up about 90% of students in alternative schools. Note that not that high a % of the population ends up in alternative high schools but it shows how little the needs of these students are met...
    Wow, I didn't know we were such academic failures. I was in gifted classes in elementary and middle school and in all advanced classes in high school. I was also on the honor roll and got into the Uni of my choice. Hmm...guess I'm an exception.

    I don't pay my kids for grades but I usually buy them a nice gift or take them on a trip if they've done well at school.

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