User Tag List

First 123 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 23

  1. #11
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Enneagram
    9w8
    Posts
    3,545

    Default

    @AphroditeGoneAwry yes, it is very bureaucratic.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #12
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,536

    Default Literacy and Spoken Culture

    The printing press was invented in 1440 leading to dream of universal literacy.

    Universal literacy was provided by free, compulsive and secular education for all children by State Law.

    All children were taken from their homes and compelled to go to a special institution called a school with specially trained staff called teachers.

    Learning to read is not natural, almost no one learns to learn to read naturally. Learning to read is counter-intuitive.

    Universal literacy meant an end to the spoken culture we learn naturally at home, but in return universal literacy gave us the modern world of modern medicine, science, technology, liberal democracy, and modern economics. Universal literacy gave us the modern values of freedom and equality, evidence and reason.

    Universal literacy gave us the ability, and the habit of mind , to think counter-intuitively.

    By contrast spoken cultures, that is, illiterate cultures, think intuitively.

    And today we see the clash between an old spoken culture and literate culture.

    We read every day in our newspapers of the clash between barbarism and civilization.
    Likes The Wailing Specter liked this post

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    Gubmint just needs to leave education alone.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #14
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    IEI
    Posts
    762

    Default

    This is stupid. I have a BA in English and took AP English classes all through High School, and I knew I was a good reader in Elementary School. And I didn't start reading until the first grade.

    This goes against all developmental and educational reason. Kids learn when they learn, and there isn't an actual science to teaching kids to read. You read along with them to show them which direction to read the letters, stick a book in front of them for a while each day, and eventually they'll start doing it. Expecting teachers or students to do that in some kind of insane time frame is just stupid.

    This is why I'm a libertarian.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
    http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...psdunkqmep.png
    5w4 . IEI . Chaotic Good
    Right-Libertarian Minarchist

  5. #15
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    yupp
    Posts
    29,781

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    This is stupid. I have a BA in English and took AP English classes all through High School, and I knew I was a good reader in Elementary School. And I didn't start reading until the first grade.

    This goes against all developmental and educational reason. Kids learn when they learn, and there isn't an actual science to teaching kids to read. You read along with them to show them which direction to read the letters, stick a book in front of them for a while each day, and eventually they'll start doing it. Expecting teachers or students to do that in some kind of insane time frame is just stupid.

    This is why I'm a libertarian.
    not true, completely, for me I wanted to read but couldn't it wasn't until I was taught how to sound out the words that I then was able to begin to learn to read. it was like i memorized books but i couldn't actually read them, then one day my brother taught me how to take each sylable and sound everything out. Once that happened it got a lot easier
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    This is stupid. I have a BA in English and took AP English classes all through High School, and I knew I was a good reader in Elementary School. And I didn't start reading until the first grade.

    This goes against all developmental and educational reason. Kids learn when they learn, and there isn't an actual science to teaching kids to read. You read along with them to show them which direction to read the letters, stick a book in front of them for a while each day, and eventually they'll start doing it. Expecting teachers or students to do that in some kind of insane time frame is just stupid.

    This is why I'm a libertarian.
    The desire to read and the love of books can be fostered by our parents reading aloud to us as children.

    So parents showing their love for us by reading to us, and buying books for us, and having a small library in the house, often leads to a lifelong love of books and reading.

    My parents showed their love for me by reading Wind in the Willows below. And indeed an excellent way of showing our love for each other as grownups is to read to each other turn and turn about.

    I have tried to set up a mutual reading of Wind in the Willows on Skype, but I have discovered it requires a receptiveness that is quite rare, so it seems to me.

    We can of course show our love for others by reading to patients in hospital, or to the blind, or to those shut in. But most of all, how lovely it is to read to one another. We slow down to read aloud, we focus to read aloud, we take pleasure in the very sound of the words.
    Likes Evee liked this post

  7. #17
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    MBTI
    ENFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 sp/so
    Socionics
    EIE Fe
    Posts
    7,980

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The desire to read and the love of books can be fostered by our parents reading aloud to us as children.
    Not everyone will get it though. Both of my parents love to read, and they read to me all the time as a child. Partly in the hopes and effort to pass this on to me as well. For the most part I enjoyed it as I'd sit back and listen, but it was something I never craved. Largely because I wasn't much of a listener, but more of a communicator. When I got to school and had to do the reading myself, I hated it. It was so incredibly boring to me. I either wanted to hear someone speak it out loud, or watch it. There were several points in elementary school that I was forced to read in silence with the class and I refused and so badly did not want that I threw a fit and just cried. It bored me to tears because I'd much rather talk about it or just interact with other people.

    I am speaking of books and stories though. I am reading stuff all the time, but the vast majority of it is either news articles, or forums. Both of which are things I can either discuss online, or discuss later in person with friends. Reading has to have some sort of external purpose or use for me. Reading books for enjoyment is just... dull? To me anyway. I can enjoy reading fiction and non fiction books occasionally, but it's quite rare.

    This is no fault of my parents, education, or upbringing though. I simply just don't enjoy it.
    MBTI: ExxJ tetramer
    Functions: Fe > Te > Ni > Se > Si > Ti > Fi > Ne
    Enneagram: 1w2 - 3w4 - 6w5 (The Taskmaster) | sp/so
    Socionics: β-E dimer | -
    Big 5: slOaI
    Temperament: Choleric/Melancholic
    Alignment: Lawful Neutral
    External Perception: Nohari and Johari


  8. #18
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    intp
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx
    Posts
    7,823

    Default

    I dont think kids should be required anything more than participation on that sort of stuff at that age.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read
    Likes prplchknz liked this post

  9. #19
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    IEI
    Posts
    762

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    not true, completely, for me I wanted to read but couldn't it wasn't until I was taught how to sound out the words that I then was able to begin to learn to read. it was like i memorized books but i couldn't actually read them, then one day my brother taught me how to take each sylable and sound everything out. Once that happened it got a lot easier
    So what worked for everyone else didn't work for you, and it's not like your brother was a trained educator with a degree in how to teach you to read. Educators hedge their bets by exposing children to as many different styles of teaching and hoping one of them sticks. They do it visually, verbally, aurally, and a few of them even teach kids with letter blocks. There's no "method", just a bunch of methods you have to throw at a kid. The reason adults can't read is because they weren't taught properly or exposed to the method that works for them. That isn't the same as being unable to.

    Reading is acquired through exposure. We know this as fact. There's been 50+ years of studies on why human children can learn to read and monkeys can't. At the end of the day it's because the human brain is structured to attain language like it's a sponge. And since the human brain is still in the beginning of its development at that age, it's not fair to expect them to do something they don't have the physical brain structures to do. I'm not even kidding, there were experiments with monkeys where we dressed them up and raised them from the day of their birth as human children to try and get them to acquire language. This is half a century of research in cognitive psychology and psycholinguistics that I'm talking about. We've done the same with dolphins, which ended up involving the female assistant masturbating the dolphin. You can Google that for yourself. Spoiler: it still couldn't read. I digress.

    Kids can't be "taught" language. It just happens. In fact, the only way to prevent a human from not having the cognitive ability to acquire the basics of language is to isolate them from human contact until the age of twelve. After seven they'll be hindered, but can still learn it.

    So putting a timeframe on the cognitive development of children in their acquisition of language abilities like reading is as stupid as expecting them to speak at a certain age.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The desire to read and the love of books can be fostered by our parents reading aloud to us as children.

    So parents showing their love for us by reading to us, and buying books for us, and having a small library in the house, often leads to a lifelong love of books and reading.
    Fostering a love of reading isn't the same as teaching them to read. They could have bought you the entire New York Public Library and you wouldn't be able to read any better at two years old than if they didn't give you a single book at all.

    We're talking about cognitive processes, not developing a lifestyle.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
    http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...psdunkqmep.png
    5w4 . IEI . Chaotic Good
    Right-Libertarian Minarchist

  10. #20
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    yupp
    Posts
    29,781

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    So what worked for everyone else didn't work for you, and it's not like your brother was a trained educator with a degree in how to teach you to read. Reading is acquired through exposure. We know this as fact. There's been 50+ years of studies on why human children can learn to read and monkeys can't. At the end of the day it's because the human brain is structured to attain language like it's a sponge. I'm not even kidding, there were experiments with monkeys where we dressed them up and raised them from the day of their birth as human children to try and get them to acquire language. We've done the same with dolphins, which ended up involving the female assistant masturbating the dolphin. You can Google that for yourself.

    Kids can't be "taught" language. It just happens. In fact, the only way to prevent a human from not having the cognitive ability to acquire the basics of language is to isolate them from human contact until the age of twelve. After seven they'll be hindered, but can still learn it.

    So putting a timeframe on the cognitive development of children in their acquisition of language abilities like reading is as stupid as expecting them to speak at a certain age.



    Fostering a love of reading isn't the same as teaching them to read. They could have bought you the entire New York Public Library and you wouldn't be able to read any better at two years old than if they didn't give you a single book at all.

    We're talking about cognitive processes, not developing a lifestyle.
    I wasn't completely disagreeing with you, I'm just saying it wasn't 100% correct and if you're gonna be a dick about it then forget it. I was talking about reading not spoken language which I also had delays in. but I was talking about reading. and I'm telling you that I was read aloud to every night from the time i was an infant til about 8 and it was not until i was taught how to sound out the words that i began to learn how to read. and there is actually method to reading and they have adult literacy classes, it takes adults longer but they can learn to read. phoneix is a god damn fucking method. my brother was also 10 all he did was sat with me one night it was a book about a kitten, and he showed me how to sound out the words, i knew the alphabet quite well but it had never occured to me to sound them out.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

Similar Threads

  1. Does anyone know how to make soap?
    By paperoceans in forum Home, Garden and Nature
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-04-2009, 05:42 AM
  2. It's Fun To Have Fun But You Have To Know How.
    By wolfy in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-19-2009, 02:36 AM
  3. [NF] Do you ever just 'know' how things are going to pan out?
    By Lissa in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 10-03-2009, 08:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO