• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Do Gifted And Talented Programs Really Work?

EJCC

The Devil of TypoC
Joined
Aug 29, 2008
Messages
19,129
MBTI Type
ESTJ
Enneagram
1w9
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
dude peanut allergies are so annoying. because we couldn't have the chik-fil-a biscuits for like a semster at the concession stand in highschool cuz a kid was allergic to nuts, and he kept saying it was bs because peanuts are legumes and not nuts. the chicken is fried in peanut oil. and apparently once fried the oil isn't as harmful. So yeah. this was before the whole anti-gay marriage thing happened. he finally convinced the school that he would not die if they sold the biscuits
Damn, you had a concession stand in high school? We just had inedible cafeteria food. But on the bright side it was close to downtown, so you could walk ten minutes and get a huge $3 slice of pizza at a local pizza place, or something microwaveable at the gas station, or a sandwich/cup of soup at a sandwich place.
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
Damn, you had a concession stand in high school? We just had inedible cafeteria food. But on the bright side it was close to downtown, so you could walk ten minutes and get a huge $3 slice of pizza at a local pizza place, or something microwaveable at the gas station, or a sandwich/cup of soup at a sandwich place.

yeah it funded the senior trip. so it was ran by the seniors of course the class size per grade was about 50 students. though my brother's class ruined that, (one kid got arrested) he broke a beer bottle over a local's head, and it was a huge mess to get him out of jail cuz they weren't in the states. there was a lot of bad stuff that happened. so I think after that they used the money raised for something else. they would go on like a cruise or something
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2014
Messages
2,770
MBTI Type
ENTP
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
One time, this guy was rubbing a peanut butter cookie on my arm in class. I asked him what he was doing, and he told me: I was just hoping you'd die from a peanut allergy.

Am I a bad person for laughing out loud at this? Wait, don't answer that.


Maybe this is off topic but it reminded me of all the homeschooled kids I knew growing up. Virtually every single one of them is now very successful and I remember them being very intelligent. Not that that's a result of homeschooling but I do think when you take away the distraction of having to navigate the awkward and cruel world of public socialization, you are much more free to focus on your talents, and probably less likely to get your self esteem shit on.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,192
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Do gifted and talented programs in school work? I'm torn on the idea. On the one hand, it seems like you are segregating people into categories that they then self-identify with and these programs foster less than equal opportunity. On the other hand, it seems like there is a benefit to having groups of students with similar ability together because you can teach the class at a higher level. I recall being put in the "middle group" for english in the 7th and 8th grade presumably due to some standardized test scores. The thing is, I probably have some ability with that stuff so I'm not sure it was the right group. It took me a very long time to realize this. I think of the kids that are in the bottom group - it seems like that's the worst situation. They are pigeonholed and create potentially a negative self image because of it. This article on gifted and talented programs has some interesting discussion on it.
We are always being segregated into categories that we identify with, whether 6th grade vs. 3rd; or engineering majors vs. political science; or football team vs. choir. Don't confuse equality of opportunity with equality of outcome. The first means that everyone has the same chance to get into the gifted program, because the criteria are relevant and fairly applied, just as with tryouts for the team or auditions for the choir. The second would mean that teams, choirs, and other activities take all comers. Sometimes they do, and sometimes that turns out OK.

Whether gifted programs work depends on what goals you expect them to meet, and how they are structured. Some are pullout programs, meaning that students are pulled out of their regular classes for a few hours or a day a week do do G/T activites together. Other programs keep the G/T students together all the time. Others have gifted classes in specific subjects like math or reading, which students attend based on individual needs. Of these I like pullout the least, since it disrupts the class the G/T students leave, and results in them getting more work rather than different or more challenging work (can seem like a punishment for being gifted).

If the alternative to a G/T program is that gifted students are not adequately challenged, this is unacceptable. Unfortunately this is what happens in many schools since classes are too large for teachers to tailor instruction to individual student needs. They teach to some average level, frustrating gifted or more capable students who are bored, and slower students who keep falling behind. I do like the idea someone else mentioned of raising expectations in "normal" classes, and having separate classes or programs for those who can't keep up. One way or another, no one should be forced to waste their time in class being taught things they already know, and ideally, everyone should be able to work at their own pace, even if it is much faster than their peers."

So for their social integration it is important that the gifted join a group of their gifted peers at an early age.
I have read that this is one of the most important benefits of gifted programs: it allows gifted students to spend time with others who are like them.

* Interesting how most schools are quite willing to hold back a student who has not mastered the material for his/her grade, but few are willing to let a student skip ahead a grade. More of this sort of thing might relieve the need for formal G/T programs, by allowing these students to find academic challenge through existing classes.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
I have read that this is one of the most important benefits of gifted programs: it allows gifted students to spend time with others who are like them.

The problem is that the percentage and number of actual gifted students is very tiny. But because we are vain and want to be thought of as gifted so gifted and talented classes have been created for the merely clever.

But the merely clever do not have OE (over excitability) while the actual gifted do have OE.

And then we take it to ridiculous lengths in our vanity and say, all children are gifted, which is insulting nonsense.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,192
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
The problem is that the percentage and number of actual gifted students is very tiny. But because we are vain and want to be thought of as gifted so gifted and talented classes have been created for the merely clever.

But the merely clever do not have OE (over excitability) while the actual gifted do have OE.

And then we take it to ridiculous lengths in our vanity and say, all children are gifted, which is insulting nonsense.
Everyone IS gifted, in the sense that we all have our own assortment of talents and abilities. (That's why Briggs and Meyers book is called Gifts Differing.) Not all of these gifts can be developed appropriately through what passes for public education in most places. Those so-called "gifted and talented" programs try to target at least a few of these unaddressed gifts. Viewed this way it becomes apparent that the "problem" is less with students and their individual strengths and weaknesses, but rather with an educational system that leaves large numbers of students (and their gifts) underserved and underdeveloped.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Everyone IS gifted, in the sense that we all have our own assortment of talents and abilities. (That's why Briggs and Meyers book is called Gifts Differing.) Not all of these gifts can be developed appropriately through what passes for public education in most places. Those so-called "gifted and talented" programs try to target at least a few of these unaddressed gifts. Viewed this way it becomes apparent that the "problem" is less with students and their individual strengths and weaknesses, but rather with an educational system that leaves large numbers of students (and their gifts) underserved and underdeveloped.

This is the propaganda of Mrs Briggs and her daugther, Mrs Myers. And it is also the propanda of the New Age and American popular culture. But I simply refer you to the Bell Curve and you will find the number of gifted is miniscule. On the other hand, under the Bell Curve, almost all of us are normal.

The striking thing though is that the normal socially exclude the sub-normal and the ab-normal (the gifted).

So not only is New Age propaganda irrational, it is also vicious special pleading.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,192
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
This is the propaganda of Mrs Briggs and her daugther, Mrs Myers. And it is also the propanda of the New Age and American popular culture. But I simply refer you to the Bell Curve and you will find the number of gifted is miniscule. On the other hand, under the Bell Curve, almost all of us are normal.
Exactly which bell curve are you referring to?
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
Gifted starts at 130, not 165.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,192
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I am referring to the Bell Curve on which the gifted fall. It is set out in What is Gifted and Talented Education anyway? (Part 6); IQ and the Bell-Curve - National gifted education | Examiner.com

And note: only one child in 100,000 has an IQ of 165.

So a gifted child has almost no chance of ever meeting another gifted child.
This is a very limited perspective on what it means to be gifted. This scale measures a specific set of intellectual gifts. It says nothing about artistic, athletic, interpersonal, or other gifts which probably follow their own bell curves. One can be at the upper end on one, the lower end on another, and in the middle on yet others. Yes, this is what schools usually mean when they offer "gifted programs", but then they are operating from a very limited definition, too.
 

Riva

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
2,371
Enneagram
7w8
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I am glad my school - our country i general - doesn't have it. I would havenever gotten selected to it and i would have felt jealous.

However some schools have a program for not only the most 'dedicated' students - i am using the wird dedicated instead of gifted here for obvious reasons - but have programs for weaker students. I wonder how they fel everytime a fellow student, a teacher or parent react when they hear that the studdnt is from a weak class. And the parents? Wow! It makes me fucking sick.

My experiences in gifted student programs were always positive. The class size was smaller, which was less hyper-stimulating for me. I felt constantly challenged/motivated. A few kids would jeer at students in either the accelerated or the slow classes, but kids find any reason to pick on one another. Having a combination of 'blended' courses (P.E., music, art, health, etc) - gave us an opportunity to interact & work together with everyone on the same level. Overall, I feel like the experience benefited my education (& my psychological development) more than anything else.

Because you were a part of the program, other students students probably thougbt it was a program for weird students. Infact you probably set the stone for future generations in your school who was selected to the program to be labled as weird too :tongue:.

"Oh look another lexicon. She probably talks to cats too."

I hope my mean joke hurt your feelings.

There are a tiny number of us at one end of the Bell Curve who are gifted. And they have a measured IQ of 160 or above.

And interestingly the gifted are different, not only in IQ, but also emotionally.

The gifted are emotionally gifted in that they are over excitable (OE), or sometimes it is expressed as high emotional excitability.

So for their social integration it is important that the gifted join a group of their gifted peers at an early age.

Unfortunately many parents want their children to be gifted, but the statistics are completely against it. And so we have what we might call ersatz gifted classes for the vast majority who are not gifted.

In other words, being gifted is a form of parental snobbery for many.

Meanwhile the genuinely gifted can be overlooked, misunderstood, and relegated.

Well said victor.
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
I feel like the non-traditional classrooms can alienate students. I wasn't in gifted but I was in a non-traditional classroom most of my school, and when I was in a traditional class I had an IEP but I refused to use it cuz I did not want special treatment, my teachers and parents would tell me that I should use it. I'd refuse. So maybe if I was in gifted I'd have felt ok with it. But I wasn't and I didn't want people to know that I had an IEP. It's interested people who aren't quantifiably different try so hard to prove that they're so unique and different, but me who actually had a diagnosis and was able to get services tried so hard to be normal and not let anyone know. I stopped speech and ot around 7 because I was so embarrased. But ot was actually a lot of fun, it was basically just playing.

the interesting thing though

is 80% of my friends growing up were in a gifted program of some sort.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Gifted starts at 130, not 165.

The average for University students here is 120 and none, not one is gifted. So it is a bit of a reach to claim giftedness for 130.

And if 130 were gifted we would have an enormous increase in the number of gifted and this is ridiculous.

In fact the gifted are very tiny in number and percentage, just as the sub-normal are very tiny in number and percentage. And unfortunatedly both the gifted and the sub-normal are routinely socially excluded by the normal.

So it is plain to me that your claim for giftedness at 130 is based on special pleading of the normal and sheer vanity.

In other words the normal wish to continue their emotional cruelty to the sub-normal and the gifted under the New Age mantra, that even the normal are gifted, and they are not.

Simply ask yourself, why do you make a claim for giftedness at one end of the Bell Curve, but religiously avoid making the claim for sub-nomality at the other end, when both claims are equally ridiculous?
 

Forever_Jung

Active member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Messages
2,644
MBTI Type
ESFJ
In my experience, a lot of gifted students don't get the gifted label. All the supposedly "gifted" kids my school were just high-achievers with pushy parents and slightly above-average intelligence.

On the other hand, I have an INTP friend who was very likely a genius (it's hard for me to judge, because he was so much smarter than me) and teachers never paid attention to him, unless it was to punish him for being "difficult". Growing up, he was very disengaged in class. He rarely spoke in class, and when he did, it made teachers VERY uneasy, because he clearly knew more about the subject than they did. He would calmly and politely correct them, and they just sputtered that THEY WERE RIGHT and he was being "disrespectful". Eventually he gave up and just started educating himself.

It wasn't until University that he actually started caring about school. I took Greek and Latin with him in University, and by the end of the year, the professors would ask HIM about linguistic matters they were unsure about. I was so happy to see him finally get some respect and recognition, after 13 years of being passed over by teachers who just weren't equipped to teach him.
 

Qlip

Post Human Post
Joined
Jul 30, 2010
Messages
8,464
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I enjoyed being in the program, the teachers in those classes put a lot more effort and creativity into their teaching, it seemed. I didn't think much about the challenge part. It's a shame not every student got that aspect of an education. But then again, did it really matter in the end? After all, I did drop out of school and flip burgers. (It got better)
 

Ivy

Strongly Ambivalent
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
23,989
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6
The average for University students here is 120 and none, not one is gifted. So it is a bit of a reach to claim giftedness for 130.

And if 130 were gifted we would have an enormous increase in the number of gifted and this is ridiculous.

In fact the gifted are very tiny in number and percentage, just as the sub-normal are very tiny in number and percentage. And unfortunatedly both the gifted and the sub-normal are routinely socially excluded by the normal.

So it is plain to me that your claim for giftedness at 130 is based on special pleading of the normal and sheer vanity.

In other words the normal wish to continue their emotional cruelty to the sub-normal and the gifted under the New Age mantra, that even the normal are gifted, and they are not.

Simply ask yourself, why do you make a claim for giftedness at one end of the Bell Curve, but religiously avoid making the claim for sub-nomality at the other end, when both claims are equally ridiculous?

No. I'm just telling you what the link you posted says.

What is Gifted and Talented Education anyway? (Part 6); IQ and the Bell-Curve - National gifted education | Examiner.com
IQs above 130 are where the Gifted and Talented (GT) designation begins, so this means that this includes only 2.5% of the students. These students require a much more rigorous and challenging curricula just to keep their interest.

I think you're thinking of genius, not gifted. Genius is what starts at 165. I would never claim to be a genius, but being merely gifted is a significantly lower threshold. Still, it only includes 2.5% of children, based on the information you posted. Children do not need to be geniuses to participate in gifted education but that doesn't translate into huge numbers of gifted, either.
 

prplchknz

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 11, 2007
Messages
34,397
MBTI Type
yupp
pbrIiQ5.jpg
now we all can be gifted! :happy2:
 
Top