User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 135

  1. #41
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,931

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    As much as you want, or as little as you want. A single man can be homeless and dumpster diving, or doing coke and renting a penthouse. Comfort is very subjective, most presume a norm that just isn't justified (eg: references to 80k, or specific needs down to makes)

    For a single person, I'd say the general thresholds are around 30-(50)-70k based on the US median city and you can scale that by your local COL. Below the 30 point you have failed hurdles that would make it uncomfortable (although I'd still question that, since it could result in community living and such which tends to be net positive, seen in places like Mexico). Over 70k results in nicer stuff, but it scales down very quickly at that point.

    Having said that, it doesn't give you apples to apples. Living in the downtown core of San Fran is not the same as driving to work in Boston, or New Jersey to NY. The way money is spent is really different, with really different returns on QOL (comfort). It's less about what you spend on and more about what you get. Paying affordable rent but driving an hour to work because of traffic is not equivalent to transferring the cost to rent and walking to work. Some places can't pay enough to justify the prices (see China + smog, or Eastern Europe and crime, or many places + political security). There is no comfortable wage in these places (until you reach top 10% of local population).

    I live in Vancouver (Canada), so I'm skewed towards best cities in the world. I pay ~1700 in rent for 800 sq ft... and that's on the low end of the area (~$3/sq ft average). But I don't own a car (walk to work, rent sometimes, car share the rest). It's one of the most expensive cities in the world to work/live in.

    But the QOL transfer far outweighs price.
    A lot of good points. Yes, quality of life is very important to consider, and that's not defined by money alone. Good examples re. commute, the value of Time, which translates into ability to do things outside of work, and so on. Lots and lots of factors to consider and balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    Fifty thousand dollars a year had me sitting pretty.
    Yeah, I maxed out a little over that. That life is no more, lol. And it was indeed sitting pretty for a single person.

    For most of my working life though I've made far less than that. Even upper 20k's, in the early 2000's, was a livable salary (and tbh, I felt very comfortable with that in comparison to an earlier $10/hr job which was really really tight, no savings ability at all -- so it can all be quite relative). It meant I was having to be very conscious of where my budget went (and like @Qrious mentions, being aware of where your money goes, and your own spending habits/tendencies, down to the dollar, is key), and wasn't able to partake in eating-out-on-a-whim thing that some of my friends were able to do at the time, but it was what it was and I was still able to make ends meet and save some as well.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  2. #42
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Except when a market is undergoing a correction after a crash and prices are moving back to normal.
    The difference between a crash and a correction depends on the initial variance from the mean. If you assume that the correction was the return to the mean, there would be no return to the mean; it'd already be there. The price, as a signal, is not really a good indication of future prices.

    Even the assumption of a return to mean is probably false when talking about local areas. Many local areas will not recover in a reasonable amount of time (if ever: neighboorhood capital will of been destroyed, communities are gone), while many areas never returned to anything resembling the mean. For instance, where I live remains up ~80% over 9 years, while the vacation area within an hour from here is up 17% over the same 9 years (and has corrected down ~5% in the last 5).

    Most long run changes require interpretation of the price signal. For instance, where I live is heavily influence by the growing wealth in Asia. ~2 billion people needs only a small fraction of interest to influence a ~3 million person area. The incentive to leave their current area (eg: China's environment) is very high.

    Probably, anyway. It's tough to tell and still risky due to political whims. And even being true, there is still the risk of massive changes (see Asian Flu in the 1990s) that can nail any investor. And the fundamentals are always lurking behind the scenes (see 1980s inflation/etc).

    Or when choosing a neighborhood that is increasing in popularity (and price) at a rate that outstrips the local average, and you can reasonably surmise that it will continue to do so for at least the length of the investment.
    Risk is risk. Assumption is an arrogance that people should not have in a leveraged investment. Real estate time horizon is rather long due to transaction costs.

    I'm not against real estate at all, but you win in real estate over the long run because of the double-inflation indexing.

    It's only situationally bad if you don't know what you're doing.

    General Electric (the largest company in the world) even has to rely on debt (on a daily basis) to cover their operating expenses.
    I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that the mantra "debt is bad" is situationally bad because "you don't have cash", which would always be better.

    Anyway, the GE example is about managing liquidity. The normal person comparison would be using credit cards.

    Debt is only bad if you don't know how much you can afford. To a certain extent, and especially when money is as cheap as it is right now, it makes even more sense to say finance a home purchase and lock in those low rates, while using the rest of the money you would have had to use to buy it cash to invest (either in stocks or reinvest in ones own business) and get a better return on that money.
    Agreed, which is why I said that I'd mortgage myself if I could.

  3. #43
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The difference between a crash and a correction depends on the initial variance from the mean. If you assume that the correction was the return to the mean, there would be no return to the mean; it'd already be there. The price, as a signal, is not really a good indication of future prices.

    Even the assumption of a return to mean is probably false when talking about local areas. Many local areas will not recover in a reasonable amount of time (if ever: neighboorhood capital will of been destroyed, communities are gone), while many areas never returned to anything resembling the mean. For instance, where I live remains up ~80% over 9 years, while the vacation area within an hour from here is up 17% over the same 9 years (and has corrected down ~5% in the last 5).

    Most long run changes require interpretation of the price signal. For instance, where I live is heavily influence by the growing wealth in Asia. ~2 billion people needs only a small fraction of interest to influence a ~3 million person area. The incentive to leave their current area (eg: China's environment) is very high.

    Probably, anyway. It's tough to tell and still risky due to political whims. And even being true, there is still the risk of massive changes (see Asian Flu in the 1990s) that can nail any investor. And the fundamentals are always lurking behind the scenes (see 1980s inflation/etc).



    Risk is risk. Assumption is an arrogance that people should not have in a leveraged investment. Real estate time horizon is rather long due to transaction costs.

    I'm not against real estate at all, but you win in real estate over the long run because of the double-inflation indexing.



    I think you misunderstood me. I was saying that the mantra "debt is bad" is situationally bad because "you don't have cash", which would always be better.

    Anyway, the GE example is about managing liquidity. The normal person comparison would be using credit cards.



    Agreed, which is why I said that I'd mortgage myself if I could.
    Basically, you can either read the tea leaves or you can't.

  4. #44
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Basically, you can either read the tea leaves or you can't.
    Well, sure. You either think you can, or you think you can't.

  5. #45
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Well, sure. You either think you can, or you think you can't.
    And then either you can or you can't.

  6. #46
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Socionics
    INFj None
    Posts
    9,827

    Default

    Isn't it just always better not to gamble with money you can't afford to lose?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #47
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/so
    Posts
    8,162

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Isn't it just always better not to gamble with money you can't afford to lose?
    Yup

  8. #48
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It depends on HOW you live and how you WANT to live.

    For me, I started living extremely frugal.. and now, even if I had more money, I wouldn't go back and I'd still keep these habits. I feel better with them, and they make my life a happier, more humble place.


    It's not to say I wouldn't like more luxuries, but what it takes to get & maintain is not worth it to me. My time & energy spent elsewhere is worth more. I find I enjoy what I have MORE, even if it's less, because I have the time & energy to do so, not caught up in a rat race.

    And I've always found the idea of pursuing money & the illusion of security in youth to someday supposedly kick back in retirement & finally enjoy life on your terms, but now you're old & ugly & perhaps riddled with health problems, to be absurd. Doesn't make sense to me.

    I actually travel more & have more leisure activities I engage in now that I work less & make less than I did pre-economic depression when I worked full-time.

    Anyways. There are a lot of ways to save money on all bills and costs of living. So it really is hard to say. But I can say this:
    - You need a savings fund. You need to put away at least 1 month's worth of living (not just bills), and preferably 3+ months worth.
    - You need to keep in mind that you need a slush fund. Some things always come up. If you're trying to make a hardcore budget, you'll forget SOMETHING somewhere. The car registration. A birthday. A beer with your friend that just got dumped by her relationship of 5 years. A new girlfriend walks into your life. Etc. etc. A slush fund is important--do NOT tie all of your money up every month.
    These are good points. After having to live off a savings for some time due to economic slump & unemployment, I realized more than enough savings to not be living check to check is mostly unnecessary. I would say 1 months worth is enough, the rest is illusion.

    There was little discernible difference between my life before & after the savings ran out, other than an illusion of security. So I worked hard for years to save up money gone in less than a year to the mundanities of life (car payment, rent, groceries, gas), when what really got me through that period was human connections.

    The human connections are much more important than a big, fat savings. This even includes travel, hobbies & little luxuries. For example, people feed me all the time - not cuz they see me as a charity case. But we're friends, so they invite me over for dinner or treat me to lunch. This extends my food budget, of course. Knowing people with a clothes washer/dryer who don't care if you use it can be handy, but always be prepared to take care of it yourself too.

    As for the "slush fund" - not sure what that word means, but I call it "padding". It's budgeting for the unbudgeted. And some of it becomes pretty predictable if you're honest with how you spend on little things here & there. A tight budget doesn't feel tight when you don't have to worry about scraping up money to meet a friend for coffee.

    I also advise having your own business which shows a LOSS. Write-off as much as you honestly can. Tie business up in everything. Out to eat? Talk about that business a bit. It doesn't matter if you have a job elsewhere. Always have a side business or two, and LOSE money on it. This comes in handy for making more & working less, because less is eaten by taxes. You can make less than someone with a higher income & live the same because you actually do bring home the same cash.


    Quote Originally Posted by OptoGypsy View Post
    At this point I want to be able to afford to take care of myself so-dishwasher, Kitchen, Dryer etc Have a mattress, 1 bathroom, Entertainment Room (Home Entertainment system, Table Games), Bar, A Mitsubishi Lancer Evo for transportation and to be able to go Laser Tagging on a weekly basis. Outside of that food, Clothes (Zumiez for casual, Armani for work) Gym Membership, so would that be around $80,000-100,000?
    Where are you living?
    I don't know what laser tagging costs, or what kind of car payment that would be, but 100k seems a lot for that.

    I live in a small city (one which requires a car) & get by on much less, although ideally I'd make a bit more than I do now (but not by a lot...maybe just $5k a year more).

    I don't do so much home entertainment. I don't pay for TV, but sometimes pay for music. But I do more personal care stuff than most men would (ie. hair appointments & nice skin care products). I tried going without internet at home for 1 month & realized it was not to be. But I also use it for work.

    I also fix things all the time. Instead of new electronics, I fix them & use them much longer than most people do. If you want the latest/greatest, then that's a problem. But I tend to buy the best I can afford & then use it for a long time, so it's not dated as fast as some other options. I see little difference in the quality of my life compared to people who pay more in this area. My experiences aren't lesser, or not by enough.

    I don't have a microwave - discovered I don't need it. Apartments are usually cheaper without these things. I save about $300/month on an apt in my area because I looked for places without "amenities". I don't have a dishwasher - discovered I do want one very badly . Can get one for around $200 if I decide it's worth that (one I can take to another apt with me should I move; probably a better bet than paying higher rent every month for a place decked out with that stuff). These tiny things have saved money & not affected my life negatively, but in a positive way I don't need to work as much. But I don't let anyone tell me what I really need or do not. I'm just painting a picture here & throwing out ideas. Some would call some of what I pay for frivolous but then marvel at what I do without. You just have to know what that is for yourself.

    Roommates can help a lot to cut down expenses, but I prefer to not have one, so that's a choice I make that costs me more. If you want more expendable income or to save more faster, then that's roomies are probably the way to go.

    I hardly have furniture, and I would like some, but it's the dumbest thing to spend money on, IMO. I'm keeping my eye out on craigslist. I've seen some good deals that I missed due to not needing it at the time. In the meantime, nowhere for people to sit means no one comes over & eats my food - I continue to save :P.

    Gym membership - might find cheaper ways to work out. But it's good you've figured out the "must haves" for lifestyle. I tend to do groupon passes where I get a discounted pass to a pilates/yoga studio & then when it runs out I find a new one, as the full price is too much. I'm not locked into any contract, so in a tighter month, I don't worry about paying a bill.

    Lastly - don't take advice from an INFP on these matters, unless you are "crazy" - aka very creative - & ready to disperse with all common sense & don't fret about safety/security stuff. If you think you could emotionally cope with couch surfing, living out of a car, & eating top ramen for a few months, then you're ready for The Lifestyle (TM)*. Then you will know that NOT stressing about money doesn't mean having more of it, and having the life you want probably costs less than you imagine.

    *I've never quite done any of that, just FYI, but it doesn't frighten me & I even manage to romanticize it.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  9. #49
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    7,370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    250k
    ^/mo
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  10. #50
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    And then either you can or you can't.
    Can't argue with logical statements that include all cases... however, it's rare enough that I'd assume that no one can.

    (Obviously exploiting information gaps, etc. does not apply. I'm talking tea leaves only.)

Similar Threads

  1. What does your comfort zone look like?
    By prplchknz in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 07-02-2008, 06:48 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO