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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Why not? How could it be anything other than a manifestation of introversion? What would it have to do with?
    It could also correlate with social anxiety... I read "introvert" literature and often tend to relate because I tend to be socially anxious, though an extravert. I really don't like people putting me on the spot.

  2. #22
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    I was trying to point out that there's nothing inherently more annoying or rude about a salesperson asking you if you need help than there is a customer asking a salesperson for help. But then they get paid to be helpful.
    The two situations are not at all equivalent. The salesperson's inquiry may not be rude, but it can be unwelcome and intrusive. If the salesperson finds customer inquiries inherently unwelcome and intrusive, he/she is in the wrong line of work. It is their job to respond to the customer, not the other way around.

    It does relate to introversion, and possibly other functions as well. I dislike most casual interactions, hate being interrupted, and hate being asked the same stupid questions over and over by people who cannot be bothered to read available information or put 2 and 2 together. That being said, when I have held retail jobs (and I have), I understood responding effectively to customers was part of the job, and oriented my work habits and mindset to support it. I was always complimented for my politeness and patience with customers. That's the difference between choice and preference, as well as between salesperson and customer.
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  3. #23
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    It could also correlate with social anxiety... I read "introvert" literature and often tend to relate because I tend to be socially anxious, though an extravert. I really don't like people putting me on the spot.
    I don't think it's entirely social anxiety.... I also have a dislike for unwelcome distractions.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I don't think it's entirely social anxiety.... I also have a dislike for unwelcome distractions.
    No, I am sure you are right that the primarily correlation is introversion and that it is not entirely correlated with social anxiety. I was not meaning to contest that. But I do think these points can also correlate with other attributes than introversion.

    I just wanted to note that much of this literature also is applicable to people with social anxiety. I might be an "extravert" but I am in the club of those who would like more introvert culture in the workplace.

    People IRL generally think I am introverted and I do not contradict that because I would prefer a more introverted world anyway.

    The current typical corporate culture seems to driven by those who benefit from it, and is a self-perpetuating thing. Those of us who do not like it so much gravitate away from it and therefore do not benefit from it, but as this body of literature suggests, I think there would be much benefit from welcoming other types of relation.

  5. #25
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post

    Huh. Thanks for agreeing with me.
    I disagree.

    She is clearly saying that it [i]is[i] more annoying if a sales person bothers a customer, although she does not say it is rude.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #26
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post

    The current typical corporate culture seems to driven by those who benefit from it, and is a self-perpetuating thing. Those of us who do not like it so much gravitate away from it and therefore do not benefit from it, but as this body of literature suggests, I think there would be much benefit from welcoming other types of relation.
    I suppose that is a valid point, that this stuff can apply to people with social anxiety who are not introverted. So maybe it shouldn't just refer to introverts in the article/book.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  7. #27
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    Well, I definitely think an open plan workplace is stupid, and that sitting people too close to each other is also a bad idea. Separate from that, I find it very difficult to function in such environments. I don't know why all these engineering startups (engineering is notorious for introverts) are employing these stupid things to force people to talk to each other or to save money, or whatever stupid reason they have for doing it. All you are doing is increasing stress, tension, misery, and workplace dissatisfaction. The idea should be to move away from the typical office environment and the typical etiquette/bullshit that everyone complains about and that Dilbert made it's name bringing to light to something that makes more sense. But instead they make the same problems worse, then claim that what they are doing fixes these problems.

    Collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration. These idiots can take anything that's fairly straightforward, or that makes sense, and butcher it until it's just more of the same old thing. Collaboration, done well, can be a good thing, but then, as always, they find a way to shove it down everyone's throat until it becomes a source of pain and completely watered down and meaningless.

    I also hate the forced socialization of modern engineering graduates. It seems they are being forced to be more social (do it or fail miserably), and are getting dumber for not being able to focus on learning. It's like they are trying to wire out introversion, or make introverts even more miserable or strained in everyday life. This is bullshit.

  8. #28
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I suppose that is a valid point, that this stuff can apply to people with social anxiety who are not introverted. So maybe it shouldn't just refer to introverts in the article/book.
    Well I would appreciate if the literature were more welcoming to me as a non-introvert... I'm not even good at playing at business-style extraversion. It's so much fakery and showmanship... but I agree with all the content anyway, so logically it's moot. I support it regardless. But it would be nice.

    Quote Originally Posted by CapLawyer
    The idea should be to move away from the typical office environment and the typical etiquette/bullshit that everyone complains about and that Dilbert made it's name bringing to light to something that makes more sense. But instead they make the same problems worse, then claim that what they are doing fixes these problems.

    Collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration. These idiots can take anything that's fairly straightforward, or that makes sense, and butcher it until it's just more of the same old thing. Collaboration, done well, can be a good thing, but then, as always, they find a way to shove it down everyone's throat until it becomes a source of pain and completely watered down and meaningless.
    Yes you are so right. And I was talking to my coworker the other day, about how it is all so bizarrely backwards. Like the example of our system if you get hurt at work. You would think at a proper workplace, they would be worried about you and want to take care of your medical expenses. At my workplace, if you get hurt, they try to minimize the wound so you can get back to work and they make you answer questions about whether you were doing what you were supposed to be doing and whether you were wearing the right clothing, so they don't have to be responsible if they can find a loophole. Then they make you take a drug test, which is not unreasonable, but it is cruel to someone who is already down and out. And it shows how much they would like to avoid liability if possible. So HR ends up working against you, which is the exact opposite of what HR should be.

    But that is not extraversion related. But it is the same thing. Taking something and inverting it to the same wrong pattern. Taking the letter of the law and inverting the spirit. Taking the good points of extraversion, like open communication, and forcing it into some bizarre rule-bound, forced, arbitrary checkmark on a list. Creating a waste of time that is counterproductive and creates a barrier to good collaboration.

  9. #29
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapLawyer View Post
    Collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration, collaboration. These idiots can take anything that's fairly straightforward, or that makes sense, and butcher it until it's just more of the same old thing. Collaboration, done well, can be a good thing, but then, as always, they find a way to shove it down everyone's throat until it becomes a source of pain and completely watered down and meaningless.

    I also hate the forced socialization of modern engineering graduates. It seems they are being forced to be more social (do it or fail miserably), and are getting dumber for not being able to focus on learning. It's like they are trying to wire out introversion, or make introverts even more miserable or strained in everyday life. This is bullshit.
    +1000. Doing things by committee can take much longer to produce a result that is mediocre at best, trying to offend no one while including everyone. Bah. And you are quite correct about distracting those in technical fields from the meat of their work, and their strengths. (Are you in engineering?)


    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Yes you are so right. And I was talking to my coworker the other day, about how it is all so bizarrely backwards. Like the example of our system if you get hurt at work. You would think at a proper workplace, they would be worried about you and want to take care of your medical expenses. At my workplace, if you get hurt, they try to minimize the wound so you can get back to work and they make you answer questions about whether you were doing what you were supposed to be doing and whether you were wearing the right clothing, so they don't have to be responsible if they can find a loophole. Then they make you take a drug test, which is not unreasonable, but it is cruel to someone who is already down and out. And it shows how much they would like to avoid liability if possible. So HR ends up working against you, which is the exact opposite of what HR should be.
    Most safety regulations have far less to do with keeping people safe than with sparing the organization lawsuits.

    Misplaced priorities all round.
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    introverts.

    fuck em.

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