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  1. #21
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    So what's the point of this thread? Is it to make an announcement or are you asking for advice?
    I sort of started out asking for input. That input's been received and the discussion became something else. *shrug* No worries, I go with the flow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    As I write we are conducting a Royal Commission into Institutional Child Abuse. However the Royal Commission will not be looking into trance abuse.

    Yes, trance abuse.

    Trance abuse occurs when we are put into a trance without our permission. And trance abuse occurs when, in a trance, we are given suggestions without our permission.

    Religions rely upon trance to have their doctrines accepted uncritically. And the easiest people to entrance are children.
    You give the sweeping generalizations that an Fe-dom would make, but at this point the trolling has worn thin (at least you make me laugh). ;-) If you're serious, find an evangelical Christian University that isn't weighted down with strong denominational ties in their theology...visit their theology department and actually enroll in their courses. At the very least it will make you a better troll. At the very worst...well, I'll leave the "unfortunate" fate of your Ti being forced to accept that certain conclusions are valid in favor of this religion to your imagination.
    Last edited by TopherRed; 07-07-2013 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Keeping myself from making a double post.
    Love is the point.

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    So what kind of environment do you think religious parents should create for their children? Are you saying that they shouldn't pray with their children, teach them about their faith, take them to church, etc. until they're capable of coming to a conclusion on their own?
    No, I wouldn't say that. Parents naturally share their values with their children, and in fact you can't help that in relationships, nor is that a bad thing either.

    For one, we should be clear that there is no "vacuum" where someone is making a choice that has been unaffected by bias. We're all primed by our parents and by the larger culture with certain options and not others; our choices are never 100% our own.

    Moving on, it's best to provide as much freedom to choose as possible (appropriate to age), which means providing information. What disturbs me about some environments is that the children are given some information but not all of it, because the parents believe so strongly in their view that they can't acknowledge other views, feel threatened by other views, etc. I think the parents' job is to provide a child with a sense of reality in terms of cause and effect. IOW, "you can choose this / do this, but if you do, <here> is the typical outcome. So here is what you are choosing."

    Of course, in some lifeview or religious circles, the parents might still provide inaccurate assessments, so this has to be coupled with freedom of information. As a child gets older and asks more questions, they need to feel like they can explore these issues and be able to come back to the parent with their findings, and discuss it. This helps eradicate parental bias, because if the parent provides information that doesn't seem to gel with what the child is discovering, then the trust in the parent erodes... and no parents wants to be untrusted by their child.

    None of this will happen perfectly. The parent will either err on the side of providing not enough guidance or too much control over the child's options. But hopefully if the child trusts the parent while being given access to information, and can dialogue with the parent, then the two can negotiate. And those negotiations over life experiences also help create familiarity, trust, and relationship.

    In the example you offer, basically sure, take your child to church. But make sure that you talk to them about what you believe and why, and make it clear what kinds of choices are involved. As your child gets older and more capable of weighing information and making their own choices, you can give them more flexibility. At some point, the child should be able to choose whether or not to attend various church functions, although this will probably differ from parent to parent and child to child. You have to equip your child to be adaptable, resilient, and honest as they enter adulthood; you will not be there forever, and this means autonomy is necessary, even if that autonomy leads the child in a different direction than where you went yourself.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    However the Royal Commission will not be looking into trance abuse.
    If they did, they'd have to lock you up and throw away the key.

  4. #24
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TopherRed View Post
    You give the sweeping generalizations that an Fe-dom would make, but at this point the trolling has worn thin (at least you make me laugh). ;-) If you're serious, find an evangelical Christian University that isn't weighted down with strong denominational ties in their theology...visit their theology department and actually enroll in their courses. At the very least it will make you a better troll. At the very worst...well, I'll leave the "unfortunate" fate of your Ti being forced to accept that certain conclusions are valid in favor of this religion to your imagination.
    Please! Calling me a troll is a personal insult which is against the rules and may lead to banning.

    We are free though on Typology Central to critique institutions.

    And I do understand that those who identify with an institution may be offended, but this is the price we pay for free speech.

    As for further study: do you think this would do - http://www.acu.edu.au/about_acu/facu...d_scholarships

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    If they did, they'd have to lock you up and throw away the key.
    You might, dear Ginkgo, like to sate your curiosity about trance by reading -

    1. Trance: From Magic to Technology by Dennis Wier

    2. The Way of Trance by Dennis Wier

    3. With Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance

    4. And here's a blog on trance at http://tranceresearch.blogspot.com.au/

  6. #26
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    The trance thing makes some sense to me, but that might be because I'm Pentecostal and I've observed and experienced what I believe to be pretty obvious altered states of consciousness in worship services. It's kind of hard to miss because it looks a lot like what you'd expect to see in some kind of tribal ceremony and a lot of it probably comes from that.

    I have decided that it's not something I'm comfortable participating in for the time being, in large part because I was always taught in church that altered states of consciousness open your mind up to bad things. I have not decided whether or not that is always the case, but my instincts are repelled by the idea.

    But I can't really talk about it with other Pentecostals because they don't see it as induced altered states of consciousness and would be deeply offended by my suggesting such a thing. And who knows? It may be very helpful to them and I don't want to spoil something helpful for another person. We all do have our coping mechanism and a lot of people find meditation enriching.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #27
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    You might, dear Ginkgo, like to sate your curiosity about trance by reading -

    1. Trance: From Magic to Technology by Dennis Wier

    2. The Way of Trance by Dennis Wier

    3. With Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance

    4. And here's a blog on trance at http://tranceresearch.blogspot.com.au/
    Have fun with that.

  8. #28
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    it's not something I'm comfortable participating in for the time being, in large part because I was always taught in church that altered states of consciousness open your mind up to bad things.
    It's true that in a trance we are open to suggestion. And we are open to good suggestions and bad suggestions.

    So its a good idea to decide on good suggestions before we enter a trance.

    The problem is that most of us have never learnt to enter and leave a trance at will, so we can enter a trance involuntarily, and worse, have no control over the suggestions being made.

  9. #29
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It's true that in a trance we are open to suggestion. And we are open to good suggestions and bad suggestions.

    So its a good idea to decide on good suggestions before we enter a trance.

    The problem is that most of us have never learnt to enter and leave a trance at will, so we can enter a trance involuntarily, and worse, have no control over the suggestions being made.
    Yeah. That makes sense. Personally, I don't like the feeling of not being in control of myself, so in addition to not wanting to enter a trance, I also don't use alcohol or drugs. I maybe eventually decide there are enough positive things about altered states to make it worth a try, but I don't see that happening soon.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #30
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Hypnogogic Trance

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah. That makes sense. Personally, I don't like the feeling of not being in control of myself, so in addition to not wanting to enter a trance, I also don't use alcohol or drugs. I maybe eventually decide there are enough positive things about altered states to make it worth a try, but I don't see that happening soon.
    Let me introduce you slowly. For every day you enter the same trance twice.

    Yes, just before you go to sleep, you enter the hypnogogic trance; and just as you are waking up you also enter the hypnogogic trance.

    So you see you are entranced at least twice a day.

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