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  1. #31
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    bla bla bla career path. at the end of the day you live your life day to day, and yes I am saying this as an ENTJ because I try to be fully aware of my own "neuroses" among which there is an excessive future orientation and impatience. I personally always liked physics and economics and I am now a math-oriented economist so studying what I liked it worked for me. Why did it work? Because I liked learning the subject and thus was able to always be in the top 5% and have the largest "choice". I was also lucky that what I liked was fairly employable, but not "extremely" so (I shiver at thinking how depressed would I have been if I studied IT technical subjects or engineering).

    What I am trying to say is that an optimal career path is a consequence of your day to day preferences, not the reverse, so you can't force what you "wish" to be on your own natural inclinations.

    Of course most people need to make a living and thus have to adapt somehow, but I think here we are trying to determine an *optimal" choice in a setting where the constraints are not that strong.
    '
    That's what worked for you, and that's cool. Personally, I knew what kind of things I liked and interested me, got guidance how to translate those interest into a career path, and pursued a major that supported those goals. Ideally, there should be a bridge between one's proclivities and one's career, and that bridge is a plan that ought to incorporate one's education. If you take your academic interest as a starting point, then youre basically starting at B rather than A. Why the OP wants to pursue Philosophy is frankly more important in determining where she ends up than that she's a philosophy major. Going back to my child the hypothetical MOMA curator, her love of art, her perchance as an ENFP to want to share that love with others, and her enjoyment of dealing with people make her job a good fit for her as an individual. That knowledge of what she wants will be what allows her to calibrate her decision on whether to become an Art History major vs a Studio Art major vs a History major. Beginning with the end in mind is the only way to make informed choices.

    Now, as her mother Id want to help her figure out what her proclivities are to guide her towards whatever track they amalgamate to. If for whatever reason, she just couldnt get it together, then the best option for her would be either to a) hold off on school, or b) pick a marketable major that she could live with, knowing she can always switch if she figures out what she wants. What I just laid out is perfectly reasonable, and frankly I'm indifferent to whether her little heart won't be in it. She needs to be able to feed and support herself. Thats more important to me than whether she thinks its fun or not, and she can resent me all the way to the bank once she graduates. If she flunks out, or drops out, then we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
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  2. #32
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Lots of "oughts" and "shoulds" and "ideally" you are placing there, for absolutely no reason in this specific setting. Starting at B rather than A? You're taking your own mental construct as something that actually exists in reality. It does not.

    Life creates a lot of constraints already - especially financial ones -, there is no need to strongly think about them in a pre-screeing topic about what kind of major could perhaps be optimal (and let's not forget the initial over-the top suggestion of STEM + 2 hard foreign languages). The OP isn't even being particularly idealistic about her potential future earnings and-or career direction, so a stark "reality check" does not seem to be called for.

    Honestly, the fact that you needed guidance to make your choices doesn't strongly speak in your favor either. How can you now be so confident in your recommendations?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  3. #33
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Lots of "oughts" and "shoulds" and "ideally" you are placing there, for absolutely no reason in this specific setting. Starting at B rather than A? You're taking your own mental construct as something that actually exists in reality. It does not.

    Life creates a lot of constraints already - especially financial ones -, there is no need to strongly think about them in a pre-screeing topic about what kind of major could perhaps be optimal (and let's not forget the initial over-the top suggestion of STEM + 2 hard foreign languages). The OP isn't even being particularly idealistic about her potential future earnings and-or career direction, so a stark "reality check" does not seem to be called for.
    How is one supposed to approach things if not from one's vision of the ideal with an eye to the constraints? If youre having trouble following, then thats on you. Meanwhile, theres nothing that "over the top" about recommending a competitive skillset if someone is asking about major advice. So it wasnt for her. Big deal. Ive since more than clarified what I was getting at.

    Honestly, the fact that you needed guidance to make your choices doesn't strongly speak in your favor either. How can you now be so confident in your recommendations?
    And this how I know Im wasting my time talking to you. Go back. Read my post. Then you can come back and see how much of a nonsequitor what youve just said is. Meanwhile, seeking help or guidance doesnt make someone a lesser person. Most professionals at some point along their path sought advice that was ultimately formative to who they are. So feel free to put your dick back in your pants and save that machismo bullshit for someone it actually works on.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  4. #34
    Member Valis's Avatar
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    Sounds like politics woukd be useful followed by a career in a think tank or as a political adviser. It would meet all of your criteria.

  5. #35
    Paranoid Android Video's Avatar
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    1. Just don't do debt.

    2. Whatever your choice is, make it brave.

    3. There is no shame in seeking guidance from others, but in the end, quiet the multitude of advising voices you are no doubt being swarmed with right now. Forget this post, too. Then, choose for yourself. If you decide to study something that doesn't energize you, choose profitably because you'll need the money for counseling later. We can maximize the potentials and passions we have, but cannot swap out who we are for someone more lucrative.

    Good luck, and I hope you find what you are looking for in school or at least the path to it.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Webslinger View Post
    1. Just don't do debt.

    2. Whatever your choice is, make it brave.

    3. There is no shame in seeking guidance from others, but in the end, quiet the multitude of advising voices you are no doubt being swarmed with right now. Forget this post, too. Then, choose for yourself. If you decide to study something that doesn't energize you, choose profitably because you'll need the money for counseling later. We can maximize the potentials and passions we have, but cannot swap out who we are for someone more lucrative.

    Good luck, and I hope you find what you are looking for in school or at least the path to it.
    1. I probably should have asked for financial advice instead. I have no idea what I'm doing. The school I feel best about right now would put me (at most, I still haven't gotten my financial aid information from them yet) $60k in debt. And I know I would be miserable at a state school / community college.

    3. Yep. I especially agree with what you said about maximizing the potentials and passions we have.

    Thank you!

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valis View Post
    Sounds like politics woukd be useful followed by a career in a think tank or as a political adviser. It would meet all of your criteria.
    A lot of people have told me that, surprisingly enough (since I'm a pretty shy and politically uneducated person)
    It sounds interesting. I'll take a few political science courses and see what happens.

  8. #38
    Member Valis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    A lot of people have told me that, surprisingly enough (since I'm a pretty shy and politically uneducated person)
    It sounds interesting. I'll take a few political science courses and see what happens.
    Politics, like management is what I would term an umbrella subject. Management encompasses operations, finance, leadership, marketing, human resources and so forth. Politics is similar: I would imagine includes history, law, economics to name a few. I believe they can be very interesting as there's more variety - I cerainly enjoyed management for that reason.

  9. #39
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    I'm not sure how useful my advice will be since I only graduated this past May, and my opinions on the matter will likely continue to change as I get more experienced in the job market myself, but I'm finding myself strongly agreeing with Wind-Up Rex in this scenario.

    I attended a small liberal arts school in the 60k+ debt category (though my parents have shouldered the majority of the burden and so my share is only about 20k), graduated with a degree in biology as well as 3+ years of study in Arabic. Even with the science + language, I've been having a hell of a time even getting hired into entry-level service positions in the current economy. My mother had a bad experience with a huge state school and as a result ended up recommending the liberal arts route for me on the basis that it would "help me learn to think" and that those skills would be eminently enjoyable to learn as well as employable. And as a naive teenager with some travel experience and some idealistic fantasies that seemed like a good enough idea to me, so I went for it. And I wish I hadn't.

    You may think you'll hate the state school route, but I strongly, strongly recommend at least taking some time off to explore your options, either by taking some inexpensive classes locally or volunteering or trying out a few jobs, before investing in an education where you can't see a defined end-point in terms of careers. Yes, we're in a constantly changing job market, and yes you can create your own career to some extent, but I think you'll have far more options in the long-run if you don't get yourself into debt for a degree which may or may not have practical applications.

    As an INFP myself, I've found that if my choices aren't carefully aligned with a desired endpoint, I tend to get lost along the way. I was (and still am) devoted to the idea that I can change and grow and find my path over time, but college is absolutely a business transaction and I've found that many of the things I want to do in life can either be accomplished without a Bachelor's degree OR I would be better off with a more technical degree in many cases. Like you, I find myself fascinated by many different fields and wanting to explore them all but the result has been that my resume is about as general as it could be and isn't that finely geared for ANY of the options I really want.

    I also strongly recommend internships, preferably before you're in debt, as a means to explore possible future paths as well as to give you the experience in your resume that you'll absolutely need to land any kind of job anywhere.

    Let your passions lead you to your career, but if you're not sure where your passions are, then don't jump into huge debt in the hopes that school will help you find them. I found that school just created more interests for me, but didn't give the practical experience or even awareness of what's out there to take those passions and turn them into something useful. Then again, I will freely admit that others may have used their liberal arts educations to better advantage than I have.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roheline View Post
    I'm not sure how useful my advice will be since I only graduated this past May, and my opinions on the matter will likely continue to change as I get more experienced in the job market myself, but I'm finding myself strongly agreeing with Wind-Up Rex in this scenario.

    I attended a small liberal arts school in the 60k+ debt category (though my parents have shouldered the majority of the burden and so my share is only about 20k), graduated with a degree in biology as well as 3+ years of study in Arabic. Even with the science + language, I've been having a hell of a time even getting hired into entry-level service positions in the current economy. My mother had a bad experience with a huge state school and as a result ended up recommending the liberal arts route for me on the basis that it would "help me learn to think" and that those skills would be eminently enjoyable to learn as well as employable. And as a naive teenager with some travel experience and some idealistic fantasies that seemed like a good enough idea to me, so I went for it. And I wish I hadn't.

    You may think you'll hate the state school route, but I strongly, strongly recommend at least taking some time off to explore your options, either by taking some inexpensive classes locally or volunteering or trying out a few jobs, before investing in an education where you can't see a defined end-point in terms of careers. Yes, we're in a constantly changing job market, and yes you can create your own career to some extent, but I think you'll have far more options in the long-run if you don't get yourself into debt for a degree which may or may not have practical applications.

    As an INFP myself, I've found that if my choices aren't carefully aligned with a desired endpoint, I tend to get lost along the way. I was (and still am) devoted to the idea that I can change and grow and find my path over time, but college is absolutely a business transaction and I've found that many of the things I want to do in life can either be accomplished without a Bachelor's degree OR I would be better off with a more technical degree in many cases. Like you, I find myself fascinated by many different fields and wanting to explore them all but the result has been that my resume is about as general as it could be and isn't that finely geared for ANY of the options I really want.

    I also strongly recommend internships, preferably before you're in debt, as a means to explore possible future paths as well as to give you the experience in your resume that you'll absolutely need to land any kind of job anywhere.

    Let your passions lead you to your career, but if you're not sure where your passions are, then don't jump into huge debt in the hopes that school will help you find them. I found that school just created more interests for me, but didn't give the practical experience or even awareness of what's out there to take those passions and turn them into something useful. Then again, I will freely admit that others may have used their liberal arts educations to better advantage than I have.
    thanks for the response!

    I thought about taking time off, but heard that I would lose scholarship and financial aid money. Do you know if this is true? Also, the local colleges in my area are notoriously bad and there would be virtually no job opportunities for me here. I definitely would have explored that option more if this hadn't been the case.

    I have minimal interest in starting out at a state school, too. First of all, I live in Ohio and I would be miserable at a school as large as OSU; I've visited and extensively researched both Cleveland and Miami, the smallest, and can't imagine myself not hating either. (Surprisingly, none of the state schools would be significantly cheaper.) And I've heard from multiple people who transferred at some point during college that they regretted it. They said it was hard to make friends after most in their class had started as freshman together.

    I know that college is a business transaction, but I'm just as concerned about how well a school will help me grow personally. I know, a person can grow anywhere as long as they can adapt - but I've been adapting to uncomfortable settings and circumstances all my life, and I need a place better fit to my personality. I was resistant to this idea until a few months ago, because a state/local school seemed like the most practical route for the first 1-2 years. Now that I've visited and thought about it in more depth, I can't emphasize strongly enough how important a school's social atmosphere is to me.

    I expect to have a much clearer idea of what I want to do towards the end of my freshman year. I don't know exactly why I feel like this, I just do. It's like the right answer is just on the verge of becoming obvious. So I'm personally not that worried, but if something I've said here still seems concerning/unrealistic/moronic, feel free to try to talk some sense into me. (;

    *by the way, it's looking like the yearly total cost for my top school will be around $10-13,000. (Still waiting to see if my family qualifies for special circumstances.) I'm tentatively planning on majoring in business with a minor in philosophy or urban studies. The university is known for great academic advisement and I'm pretty confident that I'll be well-guided career-wise. And, I mean, I'm really fine with debt. I don't have extravagant tastes, don't have wildly impractical/unstable career ambitions, don't plan on having a child right out of college. Though this is a little concerning - I want to have a kid before I'm 30-35, so...debt might be an issue then.

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