College major / career advice?

[violet_crown]

That doesn't mean suggesting a heavily corporate career makes sense. You can always find a middle ground that could both be compatible with someone's attitudes and provide a human living (not being "rich", of course).

The background I've suggested would make him competitive for all kinds of things. If he wanted to, he could take that skillset and work for a social enterprise designing solar powered stoves for people in the developing world. It would be something that does good, but gets him more of a paycheck than if he were simply fetching coffee as someone's intern. Second, there's nothing preventing him from pursuing that STEM major in conjunction with a second liberal arts major or minor. There were tons of kids at my university who were pre-med with minors in philosophy. Finally, there's nothing stopping him from pursuing a graduate degree in Literature or whatever if that's what he so desires, because he'll always have that practical fall back.

The point being that someone with the background that I described may not always use it in the prescribed way, but they'll always have it if they need it. If he wants to have the background of a corporate jetsetter, but instead teach middle school history, then he has that option. As opposed to someone who has that history degree, aspires to more than teaching, and does not.

 

[FDG]

You're completely forgetting about the process of actually obtaining the degree. What if he does not LIKE STEM? There is absolutely nothing in the OP that suggests he-she would enjoy what you are depicting. In that case he-she will make a mediocre graduate if not a drop-out and may be very far from having all the options you describe, not to mention the miserable overall experience.

 

[mintleaf]

The background I've suggested would make him competitive for all kinds of things. If he wanted to, he could take that skillset and work for a social enterprise designing solar powered stoves for people in the developing world. It would be something that does good, but gets him more of a paycheck than if he were simply fetching coffee as someone's intern. Second, there's nothing preventing him from pursuing that STEM major in conjunction with a second liberal arts major or minor. There were tons of kids at my university who were pre-med with minors in philosophy. Finally, there's nothing stopping him from pursuing a graduate degree in Literature or whatever if that's what he so desires, because he'll always have that practical fall back.

The point being that someone with the background that I described may not always use it in the prescribed way, but they'll always have it if they need it. If he wants to have the background of a corporate jetsetter, but instead teach middle school history, then he has that option. As opposed to someone who has that history degree, aspires to more than teaching, and does not.

*She

I appreciate the logic behind this suggestion, but I don't have any interest in STEM at all. The only overtly practical field I would consider going into is business.

Not sure why you would compare my preferences (none of which were necessarily impractical) to a child's preference for eating cake all day. I know that going into the job market with only an undergraduate humanities degree is risky. If I were to major in English or Philosophy, I would definitely go on to grad school. (I should have clarified that in the OP.) There are many fields that would be a reasonable middle ground for me.

 

[violet_crown]

You're completely forgetting about the process of actually obtaining the degree. What if he does not LIKE STEM? There is absolutely nothing in the OP that suggests he-she would enjoy what you are depicting. In that case he-she will make a mediocre graduate if not a drop-out and may be very far from having all the options you describe, not to mention the miserable overall experience.

To be fair, my initial comment was more than a little facetious, and I made it assuming both that it'd be taken as such and that I wouldn't be here having to defending it to this level. But, if we're really going there, then my point was that the OP has to be a bit more pragmatic about selecting a major than whether or not it makes them happy. I think that Americans have come to a point where they take college for granted as something one does after you graduate from high school when that simply shouldn't be the case. College is only worth the time, energy, and investment if you know that it's gonna contribute to your overall career path.

Of course, you can argue that the present state of things is such that to be competitive for even a bottom rung job necessitates an undergraduate education as a minimum. That they are essentially the new high school diploma. That's a valid (not to mention fairly well-established) point. That doesn't mean, however, that what you study should be some touchy-feely, free-for-all exercise in "finding oneself"or exploring your intellectual interest. As [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] put it, college is a business exchange. You need to go in there knowing what exactly you need to get out of that transaction. If I had a kid who knew that they wanted to be a curator for MOMA when they grew up, then I would have no qualms about shelling out the cash so they could be an Art History major at Vassar. On the other hand, if I had a kid that didn't really know what they wanted to do, then they're going to be on my STEM+Mandrin plan until they get an idea. They want to take a few years to "find themselves" and "explore their interests", then there are some perfectly nice community colleges they can go to until they get it together. Or better yet they can take a year to work, so they know what it's like to have bills and responsibilities--an experience I feel would go a long way towards clairfying the priorities of a teenager who has no plans but "really wants to study English".

Now, I'm assuming that the OPs parents are paying for his schooling, which may not be the case. If my kid had a scholarship, and is paying his or her own way through school, then that's a totally different story. I would still encourage him to acquire a marketable skill through his education, or at least have a clear idea how a less traditionally marketable major will contribute to his career path. But to some extent I'd be more willing to stand back, because there's a somewhat greater margin for error for someone who doesn't graduate with any financial obligations.

I believe very deeply in the importance of an education, and that all knowledge is worth having besides. But the simple fact of the matter is that approaching college as if it's purely about the acquisition of knowledge for its own sake is dangerously naive. If you go to college thinking that your only there to learn, then you're starting from a deficit. If you go in, on the other hand, approaching it as a means to prepare yourself for a career, then you're going to have a totally different mindset. Opportunities will be on your radar that just won't occur to the first person I described, and you'll ultimately set yourself up a better experience not only as an undergrad, but beyond.

 

[violet_crown]

*She

I appreciate the logic behind this suggestion, but I don't have any interest in STEM at all. The only overtly practical field I would consider going into is business.

Not sure why you would compare my preferences (none of which were necessarily impractical) to a child's preference for eating cake all day. I know that going into the job market with only an undergraduate humanities degree is risky. If I were to major in English or Philosophy, I would definitely go on to grad school. (I should have clarified that in the OP.) There are many fields that would be a reasonable middle ground for me.

You can more or less ignore the discussion between myself and FDG. And I hope you'll pardon my glibness (as well as calling you male). If I'm being serious face about this, then the bottom line for you ought to be what I bolded in my previous post. If that doesn't jive with where you're at, then I've unfortunately exhausted my soundest material.

 

[rav3n]

Philosophy is a natural lead-in to Law. From the sounds of it, you're right brained (being lazy since the brain hemispheres theory has been debunked but you get my picture) so the soft sciences would be better than hard sciences.

 

[mintleaf]

You can more or less ignore the discussion between myself and FDG. And I hope you'll pardon my glibness (as well as calling you male). If I'm being serious face about this, then the bottom line for you ought to be what I bolded in my previous post. If that doesn't jive with where you're at, then I've unfortunately exhausted my soundest material.

Haha, it's fine. I do agree with FDG, though, and you wouldn't have had to defend yourself so extensively if you'd realized that he wasn't arguing against what you bolded. (as well as the fact that you had seemed to take a more extreme stance before.)

 

[violet_crown]

Haha, it's fine. I do agree with FDG, though, and you wouldn't have had to defend yourself so extensively if you'd realized that he wasn't arguing against what you bolded. (as well as the fact that you had seemed to take a more extreme stance before.)

Oh, I'm deadly serious about the whole STEM thing. I acknowledge though that specific points are usually stand ins for broader concepts with me, and I forget everyone doesn't think that way. So I was a little confused when I got so much push back when I felt I was obviously being silly, but nonetheless pointing to something reasonably pragmatic for someone asking for advice on sorting out her major.

Anyways. Picking a major is the first adult decision that most people make. There's a lot of responsibility in that, but also a great deal of freedom. As long as your mindful of your future, you can't really make a wrong choice.

Have fun and best of luck.

 

[FDG]

bla bla bla career path. at the end of the day you live your life day to day, and yes I am saying this as an ENTJ because I try to be fully aware of my own "neuroses" among which there is an excessive future orientation and impatience. I personally always liked physics and economics and I am now a math-oriented economist so studying what I liked it worked for me. Why did it work? Because I liked learning the subject and thus was able to always be in the top 5% and have the largest "choice". I was also lucky that what I liked was fairly employable, but not "extremely" so (I shiver at thinking how depressed would I have been if I studied IT technical subjects or engineering).

What I am trying to say is that an optimal career path is a consequence of your day to day preferences, not the reverse, so you can't force what you "wish" to be on your own natural inclinations.

Of course most people need to make a living and thus have to adapt somehow, but I think here we are trying to determine an *optimal" choice in a setting where the constraints are not that strong.
'

 

[mintleaf]

Oh, I'm deadly serious about the whole STEM thing. I acknowledge though that specific points are usually stand ins for broader concepts with me, and I forget everyone doesn't think that way. So I was a little confused when I got so much push back when I felt I was obviously being silly, but nonetheless pointing to something reasonably pragmatic for someone asking for advice on sorting out her major.

Anyways. Picking a major is the first adult decision that most people make. There's a lot of responsibility in that, but also a great deal of freedom. As long as your mindful of your future, you can't really make a wrong choice.

Have fun and best of luck.

I still don't think it was clear to anyone what you were arguing for, as most people realized a middle ground would be much more reasonable. (I know that's what you seem to be saying now, but you were seriously defending STEM as a viable option for me for a while there.)

Thank you, I'm really looking forward to it.

 

[violet_crown]

bla bla bla career path. at the end of the day you live your life day to day, and yes I am saying this as an ENTJ because I try to be fully aware of my own "neuroses" among which there is an excessive future orientation and impatience. I personally always liked physics and economics and I am now a math-oriented economist so studying what I liked it worked for me. Why did it work? Because I liked learning the subject and thus was able to always be in the top 5% and have the largest "choice". I was also lucky that what I liked was fairly employable, but not "extremely" so (I shiver at thinking how depressed would I have been if I studied IT technical subjects or engineering).

What I am trying to say is that an optimal career path is a consequence of your day to day preferences, not the reverse, so you can't force what you "wish" to be on your own natural inclinations.

Of course most people need to make a living and thus have to adapt somehow, but I think here we are trying to determine an *optimal" choice in a setting where the constraints are not that strong.
'

That's what worked for you, and that's cool. Personally, I knew what kind of things I liked and interested me, got guidance how to translate those interest into a career path, and pursued a major that supported those goals. Ideally, there should be a bridge between one's proclivities and one's career, and that bridge is a plan that ought to incorporate one's education. If you take your academic interest as a starting point, then youre basically starting at B rather than A. Why the OP wants to pursue Philosophy is frankly more important in determining where she ends up than that she's a philosophy major. Going back to my child the hypothetical MOMA curator, her love of art, her perchance as an ENFP to want to share that love with others, and her enjoyment of dealing with people make her job a good fit for her as an individual. That knowledge of what she wants will be what allows her to calibrate her decision on whether to become an Art History major vs a Studio Art major vs a History major. Beginning with the end in mind is the only way to make informed choices.

Now, as her mother Id want to help her figure out what her proclivities are to guide her towards whatever track they amalgamate to. If for whatever reason, she just couldnt get it together, then the best option for her would be either to a) hold off on school, or b) pick a marketable major that she could live with, knowing she can always switch if she figures out what she wants. What I just laid out is perfectly reasonable, and frankly I'm indifferent to whether her little heart won't be in it. She needs to be able to feed and support herself. Thats more important to me than whether she thinks its fun or not, and she can resent me all the way to the bank once she graduates. If she flunks out, or drops out, then we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

 

[FDG]

Lots of "oughts" and "shoulds" and "ideally" you are placing there, for absolutely no reason in this specific setting. Starting at B rather than A? You're taking your own mental construct as something that actually exists in reality. It does not.

Life creates a lot of constraints already - especially financial ones -, there is no need to strongly think about them in a pre-screeing topic about what kind of major could perhaps be optimal (and let's not forget the initial over-the top suggestion of STEM + 2 hard foreign languages). The OP isn't even being particularly idealistic about her potential future earnings and-or career direction, so a stark "reality check" does not seem to be called for.

Honestly, the fact that you needed guidance to make your choices doesn't strongly speak in your favor either. How can you now be so confident in your recommendations?

 

[violet_crown]

Lots of "oughts" and "shoulds" and "ideally" you are placing there, for absolutely no reason in this specific setting. Starting at B rather than A? You're taking your own mental construct as something that actually exists in reality. It does not.

Life creates a lot of constraints already - especially financial ones -, there is no need to strongly think about them in a pre-screeing topic about what kind of major could perhaps be optimal (and let's not forget the initial over-the top suggestion of STEM + 2 hard foreign languages). The OP isn't even being particularly idealistic about her potential future earnings and-or career direction, so a stark "reality check" does not seem to be called for.

How is one supposed to approach things if not from one's vision of the ideal with an eye to the constraints? If youre having trouble following, then thats on you. Meanwhile, theres nothing that "over the top" about recommending a competitive skillset if someone is asking about major advice. So it wasnt for her. Big deal. Ive since more than clarified what I was getting at.

Honestly, the fact that you needed guidance to make your choices doesn't strongly speak in your favor either. How can you now be so confident in your recommendations?

And this how I know Im wasting my time talking to you. Go back. Read my post. Then you can come back and see how much of a nonsequitor what youve just said is. Meanwhile, seeking help or guidance doesnt make someone a lesser person. Most professionals at some point along their path sought advice that was ultimately formative to who they are. So feel free to put your dick back in your pants and save that machismo bullshit for someone it actually works on.

 

[Valis]

Sounds like politics woukd be useful followed by a career in a think tank or as a political adviser. It would meet all of your criteria.

 

[Galena]

1. Just don't do debt.

2. Whatever your choice is, make it brave.

3. There is no shame in seeking guidance from others, but in the end, quiet the multitude of advising voices you are no doubt being swarmed with right now. Forget this post, too. Then, choose for yourself. If you decide to study something that doesn't energize you, choose profitably because you'll need the money for counseling later. We can maximize the potentials and passions we have, but cannot swap out who we are for someone more lucrative.

Good luck, and I hope you find what you are looking for in school or at least the path to it.

 

[mintleaf]

1. Just don't do debt.

2. Whatever your choice is, make it brave.

3. There is no shame in seeking guidance from others, but in the end, quiet the multitude of advising voices you are no doubt being swarmed with right now. Forget this post, too. Then, choose for yourself. If you decide to study something that doesn't energize you, choose profitably because you'll need the money for counseling later. We can maximize the potentials and passions we have, but cannot swap out who we are for someone more lucrative.

Good luck, and I hope you find what you are looking for in school or at least the path to it.

1. I probably should have asked for financial advice instead. I have no idea what I'm doing. The school I feel best about right now would put me (at most, I still haven't gotten my financial aid information from them yet) $60k in debt. And I know I would be miserable at a state school / community college.

3. Yep. I especially agree with what you said about maximizing the potentials and passions we have.

Thank you!

 

[mintleaf]

Sounds like politics woukd be useful followed by a career in a think tank or as a political adviser. It would meet all of your criteria.

A lot of people have told me that, surprisingly enough (since I'm a pretty shy and politically uneducated person)
It sounds interesting. I'll take a few political science courses and see what happens.

 

[Valis]

A lot of people have told me that, surprisingly enough (since I'm a pretty shy and politically uneducated person)
It sounds interesting. I'll take a few political science courses and see what happens.

Politics, like management is what I would term an umbrella subject. Management encompasses operations, finance, leadership, marketing, human resources and so forth. Politics is similar: I would imagine includes history, law, economics to name a few. I believe they can be very interesting as there's more variety - I cerainly enjoyed management for that reason.

 

[Roheline]

I'm not sure how useful my advice will be since I only graduated this past May, and my opinions on the matter will likely continue to change as I get more experienced in the job market myself, but I'm finding myself strongly agreeing with Wind-Up Rex in this scenario.

I attended a small liberal arts school in the 60k+ debt category (though my parents have shouldered the majority of the burden and so my share is only about 20k), graduated with a degree in biology as well as 3+ years of study in Arabic. Even with the science + language, I've been having a hell of a time even getting hired into entry-level service positions in the current economy. My mother had a bad experience with a huge state school and as a result ended up recommending the liberal arts route for me on the basis that it would "help me learn to think" and that those skills would be eminently enjoyable to learn as well as employable. And as a naive teenager with some travel experience and some idealistic fantasies that seemed like a good enough idea to me, so I went for it. And I wish I hadn't.

You may think you'll hate the state school route, but I strongly, strongly recommend at least taking some time off to explore your options, either by taking some inexpensive classes locally or volunteering or trying out a few jobs, before investing in an education where you can't see a defined end-point in terms of careers. Yes, we're in a constantly changing job market, and yes you can create your own career to some extent, but I think you'll have far more options in the long-run if you don't get yourself into debt for a degree which may or may not have practical applications.

As an INFP myself, I've found that if my choices aren't carefully aligned with a desired endpoint, I tend to get lost along the way. I was (and still am) devoted to the idea that I can change and grow and find my path over time, but college is absolutely a business transaction and I've found that many of the things I want to do in life can either be accomplished without a Bachelor's degree OR I would be better off with a more technical degree in many cases. Like you, I find myself fascinated by many different fields and wanting to explore them all but the result has been that my resume is about as general as it could be and isn't that finely geared for ANY of the options I really want.

I also strongly recommend internships, preferably before you're in debt, as a means to explore possible future paths as well as to give you the experience in your resume that you'll absolutely need to land any kind of job anywhere.

Let your passions lead you to your career, but if you're not sure where your passions are, then don't jump into huge debt in the hopes that school will help you find them. I found that school just created more interests for me, but didn't give the practical experience or even awareness of what's out there to take those passions and turn them into something useful. Then again, I will freely admit that others may have used their liberal arts educations to better advantage than I have.

 

[mintleaf]

I'm not sure how useful my advice will be since I only graduated this past May, and my opinions on the matter will likely continue to change as I get more experienced in the job market myself, but I'm finding myself strongly agreeing with Wind-Up Rex in this scenario.

I attended a small liberal arts school in the 60k+ debt category (though my parents have shouldered the majority of the burden and so my share is only about 20k), graduated with a degree in biology as well as 3+ years of study in Arabic. Even with the science + language, I've been having a hell of a time even getting hired into entry-level service positions in the current economy. My mother had a bad experience with a huge state school and as a result ended up recommending the liberal arts route for me on the basis that it would "help me learn to think" and that those skills would be eminently enjoyable to learn as well as employable. And as a naive teenager with some travel experience and some idealistic fantasies that seemed like a good enough idea to me, so I went for it. And I wish I hadn't.

You may think you'll hate the state school route, but I strongly, strongly recommend at least taking some time off to explore your options, either by taking some inexpensive classes locally or volunteering or trying out a few jobs, before investing in an education where you can't see a defined end-point in terms of careers. Yes, we're in a constantly changing job market, and yes you can create your own career to some extent, but I think you'll have far more options in the long-run if you don't get yourself into debt for a degree which may or may not have practical applications.

As an INFP myself, I've found that if my choices aren't carefully aligned with a desired endpoint, I tend to get lost along the way. I was (and still am) devoted to the idea that I can change and grow and find my path over time, but college is absolutely a business transaction and I've found that many of the things I want to do in life can either be accomplished without a Bachelor's degree OR I would be better off with a more technical degree in many cases. Like you, I find myself fascinated by many different fields and wanting to explore them all but the result has been that my resume is about as general as it could be and isn't that finely geared for ANY of the options I really want.

I also strongly recommend internships, preferably before you're in debt, as a means to explore possible future paths as well as to give you the experience in your resume that you'll absolutely need to land any kind of job anywhere.

Let your passions lead you to your career, but if you're not sure where your passions are, then don't jump into huge debt in the hopes that school will help you find them. I found that school just created more interests for me, but didn't give the practical experience or even awareness of what's out there to take those passions and turn them into something useful. Then again, I will freely admit that others may have used their liberal arts educations to better advantage than I have.

thanks for the response!

I thought about taking time off, but heard that I would lose scholarship and financial aid money. Do you know if this is true? Also, the local colleges in my area are notoriously bad and there would be virtually no job opportunities for me here. I definitely would have explored that option more if this hadn't been the case.

I have minimal interest in starting out at a state school, too. First of all, I live in Ohio and I would be miserable at a school as large as OSU; I've visited and extensively researched both Cleveland and Miami, the smallest, and can't imagine myself not hating either. (Surprisingly, none of the state schools would be significantly cheaper.) And I've heard from multiple people who transferred at some point during college that they regretted it. They said it was hard to make friends after most in their class had started as freshman together.

I know that college is a business transaction, but I'm just as concerned about how well a school will help me grow personally. I know, a person can grow anywhere as long as they can adapt - but I've been adapting to uncomfortable settings and circumstances all my life, and I need a place better fit to my personality. I was resistant to this idea until a few months ago, because a state/local school seemed like the most practical route for the first 1-2 years. Now that I've visited and thought about it in more depth, I can't emphasize strongly enough how important a school's social atmosphere is to me.

I expect to have a much clearer idea of what I want to do towards the end of my freshman year. I don't know exactly why I feel like this, I just do. It's like the right answer is just on the verge of becoming obvious. So I'm personally not that worried, but if something I've said here still seems concerning/unrealistic/moronic, feel free to try to talk some sense into me. (;

*by the way, it's looking like the yearly total cost for my top school will be around $10-13,000. (Still waiting to see if my family qualifies for special circumstances.) I'm tentatively planning on majoring in business with a minor in philosophy or urban studies. The university is known for great academic advisement and I'm pretty confident that I'll be well-guided career-wise. And, I mean, I'm really fine with debt. I don't have extravagant tastes, don't have wildly impractical/unstable career ambitions, don't plan on having a child right out of college. Though this is a little concerning - I want to have a kid before I'm 30-35, so...debt might be an issue then.