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  1. #11
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    They don't come natural to anybody. F people learn how to do them.

    I've cleaned up too many social NTJ messes (ISTJs are actually quite amazing and far superior in this regard) and have heard too many "I'm so superior to you, my opinion is the only valid one, my way or the highway".

    So I read here INTJs bashing people for being lazy and what not and all those experiences with INTJs who couldn't care enough to develop any kind of social sensitivity come to mind.

    I developed social sensitivity, it didn't "come naturally" to me. It takes effort. And virtually all INTJs I've worked with (4) SUCK at it. And to be called "lazy" by INTJs who are too lazy to learn social sensitivity just pisses me off. Esp. when I remember how hard I've worked to compensate for their laziness in this regard and how little credit (esp. financial) I've got from them.

    So yeah, INTJs I've met, and the ones online I've seen, are lazy about certain things. And too stuck up to admit it.

    Get what I'm trying to say? The beam in yours, the straw in others' eyes ...
    Yes, and no.

    1. My comments are directed at you (in other words, I include you in those I call lazy) only if you do not make an effort to prepare for job interviews, including some of the common sense advice listed by other members.

    2. Social interaction does come naturally to many people. My own mother was one of these, which is why I have the fraction of a clue that I do. Balancing a checkbook, on the other hand, she was hopeless at; fortunately we had my father. I have cleaned up my share of F or S or even NTP messes, though they no doubt were different in nature from what you have dealt with. People are all different, with different gifts, inclinations, and blind spots. That is the whole point of MBTI, though it doesn't require any knowledge of personality theories to recognize it.

    3. By your logic, I am also lazy about yoga, blacksmithing, stand-up comedy, creative writing, and a host of other worthwhile pursuits that I do not choose to pursue. Life is short; time and resources are limited. I therefore focus my efforts on activities of greatest interest and utility to me. This doesn't make me lazy, just selective. I cannot do everything, and I am not about to work on weaknesses that have limited impact on my daily life, at the expense of strengths on which I depend constantly. The difference between this and the lazy job-hunters is that I have no expectation of getting results in an area where I have invested no effort. If getting results there becomes a priority, I make the effort and develop the relevant skills.

    Bottom line: while there is some validity to your criticism of INTJ social skills, and most INTJs would acknowledge that, it is incorrect to equate that with laziness. It is more often based on a conscious choice to direct one's efforts elsewhere.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    By your logic, I am also lazy about yoga, blacksmithing, stand-up comedy, creative writing, and a host of other worthwhile pursuits that I do not choose to pursue.
    Getting the job done does not depend on those.

  3. #13
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    Getting the job done does not depend on those.
    That depends on what the job is, and that is my point. I have all the skills necessary to get my job done very well.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doublejm1 View Post
    I just find that many people don't do their research.

    To be fair, some candidates do everything right and still don't come out on top -- either because someone with a little more experience edged them out, one of the candidates had a connection within the company, etc.

    But far too many people I know don't get the job because they simply didn't do their homework. NOT sending a cover letter/thank you letter is one of the biggest no-nos in the job hunting arena. It annoys me when people figure that sending a cover letter/thank you letter won't make a difference. THAT strikes me as them just being lazy. Sending a thank you letter, in particular, is huge, especially if it comes down to two equally-qualified candidates.
    In my line of work, the thank you notes are nice but mostly I ignore them and by the time I receive them, the decision has already been made anyway. We decide by the end of the day when we interview someone if we are going to hire them, unless it is on campus and they are coming in for a second office visit, in which case they have a high percentage likelihood of getting an offer but it is still quite possible not to get one if you don't click with one or two of the interviewers.

    Research is a very good thing to do but it's not generally the deciding factor. Plain and simple, the decision is made based on the perceived suitability of the candidate to not only do the work but to excel at it. It's critical behaviors, it's critical thinking skills, technical competency, demonstrated track record for getting things done, communication skills, motivation and drive, interpersonal skills, demonstrated leadership, etc. that matter. I'd be a hell of a lot more concerned about making sure your resume is framed and worded exceptionally well, free of spelling errors and sloppiness, etc., than worrying about thank you letters. If someone has a sloppy resume, I take it to mean they lack attention to detail and probably won't do a very good job with client deliverables either.

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  5. #15
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Be confident, dress well, do background research on the company, follow application directions.

    Ask (good) questions about the company.

    If you go into an interview thinking it's just you being interviewed, you're already behind.

    A quality candidate is interviewing the company (do I want to work here?) as much as the company is interviewing him.

    Kinda like with a girl, someone with options is more attractive.
    Exactly right. However, you don't want to come across as being arrogant in the way you are asking the questions because that can be a huge turnoff. GOOD questions - yes. BAD questions and you lose huge points. No questions makes it look like you aren't interested. So, instead of saying "I asked most of the questions I had already" by the time you get to your last interview, ask the best ones you have again. Tailor them to the kind of person you are being interviewed by. If it's a deep technical person, don't start asking them big picture questions about the business and if you're talking to the boss, don't ask them what the typical day is like for a hire right out of school and don't ask questions that make you sound clueless as to what the company is about or make you look like you are wishy washy or don't know what you want. Should be obvious but is not to a lot of people.


    Quote Originally Posted by mmhmm View Post
    pfft.

    there's probably a correlation regarding mid-level managers,
    who think a cover letter and thank you letter is one of the
    decision factors, and the company's turn over rates.
    I guess people do write cover letters don't they. I haven't seen one of those in ages. Maybe someone in HR reads them or something.

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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Exactly right. However, you don't want to come across as being arrogant in the way you are asking the questions because that can be a huge turnoff. GOOD questions - yes. BAD questions and you lose huge points. No questions makes it look like you aren't interested. So, instead of saying "I asked most of the questions I had already" by the time you get to your last interview, ask the best ones you have again. Tailor them to the kind of person you are being interviewed by. If it's a deep technical person, don't start asking them big picture questions about the business and if you're talking to the boss, don't ask them what the typical day is like for a hire right out of school and don't ask questions that make you sound clueless as to what the company is about or make you look like you are wishy washy or don't know what you want. Should be obvious but is not to a lot of people.
    I've usually been interviewed by a boss or at least an SVP so I usually comment on the direction the company has been taking generally.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    That depends on what the job is, and that is my point. I have all the skills necessary to get my job done very well.
    I don't know you. I was talking about the INTJs I've had experience with.

    I'm trying to show you the futility of labeling people as lazy as AffirmitiveAnxiety already tried explaining.

  8. #18
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    I don't know you. I was talking about the INTJs I've had experience with.

    I'm trying to show you the futility of labeling people as lazy as AffirmitiveAnxiety already tried explaining.
    No, you don't know me, but that doesn't stop you from painting all INTJs with the same brush. I am singling out a behavior, not a type. I don't care what your type or your excuse is, or even what your gooal is. If you have a goal and are not putting out your best effort to reach it, you are being lazy.

    AffirmativeAnxiety's comments actually support my point, by reiterating that everyone is different. The classic interview skills don't come naturally to everyone, any more than social skills, mathematical ability, or physical grace. If that's not your gift but you want or need to excel there, yes it will be hard. Yes, it will take effort. You might even argue that the skills or behaviors interviewers look for are not always necessary to do the actual job successfully. I would agree with that. If you want the job, though, you either rehearse and prepare like AA describes, however draining that may be; or you challenge the system, and show them how good you are without these skills; or you accept that you will not compare favorably with other candidates.


    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Unfortunately the modern workplace is designed with specific mentalities in mind.

    Some people are born with them, if you arent? Fuck you, you better knuckle down and develop them. It's this blindness in perception to others who do not function in the same manner that mystifies those who do possess it.
    For them it is like being told breathing is hard, it makes no sense, but that's exactly the problem; it is beyond their ken of understanding and so they berate and belittle those who struggle in the quest for job and financial security.
    I do not berate those who struggle to reach their goals. I berate, or at least label as "lazy" those who do not make the effort.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #19
    Giggity Vie's Avatar
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    I find this slightly offensive.

    I've had my resume looked at by three different people all who say that it is excellent. I graduated in the top ten percent of my class with high honors....and yet...

    I have been without a job since I relocated to the good ole' south. Five months without a job. Excuse me - without a job that has meaning, as I work at a local retail store for minimum wage. As of this morning, I've handed out 86 resumes and applications. I've really researched the topic on what I am doing wrong, how I can do better, doing everything in my power to land a job. I've started volunteering, networking, talking to strangers since I'm new the area, all in attempts to FIND A JOB.

    If your lucky enough to find a job, then why on earth would you be so negative about the people who are asking for your help?!? I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to resumes and cover letters (no how much I research), they just aren't very good. However, give me an interview and I can guarantee I'll get the job.

    In addition to this, I live near a military installation. A lot of the people looking for jobs down here fall into two categories: veterans or military spouses with a HS diploma/GED. There are no jobs in the area that are suitable for those with a college education - and this is straight from the mouth of the employment director on post. Companies do not want to hire someone with a degree when they can hire someone for less with no degree to do the same job. It's a shame, but I rarely make it past the first round before I receive "you're too overqualified, thanks but no thanks" email.

    It has nothing to do with "not being aware of what it takes", it simply wanting to be the best so you get a goddamn call back from someone that isn't McDonalds. Being that I lean conservatively, I have no problem working that stupid min. wage job but who in the hell are you to go saying that people aren't "taking the time" to research. You're generalizing about a topic which apparently you know nothing about. SMH.

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vie View Post
    I find this slightly offensive.

    It has nothing to do with "not being aware of what it takes", it simply wanting to be the best so you get a goddamn call back from someone that isn't McDonalds. Being that I lean conservatively, I have no problem working that stupid min. wage job but who in the hell are you to go saying that people aren't "taking the time" to research. You're generalizing about a topic which apparently you know nothing about. SMH.
    I assume you are referring to the OP here. (If not, please correct me.)

    Quote Originally Posted by doublejm1 View Post
    Here's what I don't understand, though: Why is it that so many people are clueless out there when it comes to polishing resumes, shining in interviews, etc.? Granted, I've had ample interview/job hunting experience, but it seems people just don't take the time to research the topic. And then they wonder why they aren't getting the jobs. It's not rocket science by any stretch.
    You seem remarkably quick to include yourself in this "so many people", for someone who has put in as much effort as you describe. I don't think the OP is refusing help to these people, just looking for insight on what has become an apparently disturbing trend. I don't deal much with the interviewing process, but see similar trends in other aspects of life. There is something to it, even though obviously not every person behaves this way.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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