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  1. #81
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post


    I am glad there are differing opinions from mine.. If everyone had my mentality, there'd be string bikinis and speedos everywhere at Wall Street. And then skin cancer rates would probably sky rocket..

    I just think that people ought to make their battles more personal, and not automatically attack and assume things about others based on things that have nothing to do with the concepts. Exposed cleavage is not what makes men objectify women. Women are not asking for attention from others if they dress in anything but completely modest attire. And I don't think most women wear something because they hope it will get them a promotion, a raise, or get them off the hook with work-related activities. Maybe that's a bit idealistic of me, but I just don't think the issue is that explosive. If it truly was, cleavage would be banned from everywhere.. and then Hooters would probably go out of business soon after.
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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    other such nonsense that broke my heart when I realized many of my male friends were not thinking we were equals like I thought they were.
    I am sorry you had those experiences.

    In my life I can't remember a single girl/woman who would be my friend without eventually dropping hints and flirting. Including after they get married. Made me pretty jaded about their motivations.

    Even now I can remember too many occasions when women I respect and want to be friends with, evaluate me quickly as "romantic/fling material" and I can literally see their eyes start to see through me when they decide there is no romantic potential.

    Every. Single. Woman. Ever.

    It's like life is a fucking race for women and if I am not part of the "winning" strategy, I am just dead weight. Women, the way I've seen them, are incredibly predatory and ruthless at winning at "love". Whatever that means for each one of them.

  3. #83
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    I am sorry you had those experiences.

    In my life I can't remember a single girl/woman who would be my friend without eventually dropping hints and flirting. Including after they get married. Made me pretty jaded about their motivations.

    Even now I can remember too many occasions when women I respect and want to be friends with, evaluate me quickly as "romantic/fling material" and I can literally see their eyes start to see through me when they decide there is no romantic potential.

    Every. Single. Woman. Ever.

    It's like life is a fucking race for women and if I am not part of the "winning" strategy, I am just dead weight. Women, the way I've seen them, are incredibly predatory and ruthless at winning at "love". Whatever that means for each one of them.
    But what does all of that have to do with you absolutely hating cleavage in the work place? I was merely trying to show you that women wear clothing for all sorts of reasons--and almost always it is self-motivated, not motivated by what others want. My examples were stating that cleavage does not mean guys will consider you more or less.. Guys do what they want and fuck-me if I don't like it. Your examples you give are supporting my points--they (women) are out for themselves and what they want too. It doesn't matter what the guys want them to wear--or anyone else for that matter--as long as they like what they wear. How is that automatically objectifying you and inconveniencing you in the workplace?
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    How is that automatically objectifying you and inconveniencing you in the workplace?
    I have never seen a woman showing cleavage who wasn't intentionally pushing it in my face. For a gazillion different reasons - yes. For themselves - yes. Still in my face and still they expect an outcome and still get "upset" if they don't get it.

    I don't want to argue. My knee jerk reaction is messing up my life and I was hoping to perhaps find a way to come to terms with the behavior in some way.

  5. #85
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    @Op

    I find there is a very big difference between dressing up the girls in a party top and ensuring maximum focus being drawn there, and a bit of cleavage in a work shirt.

    One is meant to signal you are in an approachable mood, while the other one is just..well, being feminine and feeling good in your body, I feel. Kind of like the way that suits show off a mans shoulders. It just accentuates the aesthetic lines of his body, and as theirs happens to be rectangular usually, and ours happens to be more curvy, different things are going to look better on us

    Im with K on the whole desensitising issue. Now I wont deny some women will make a work top into a party top in disguise, but that stuff is pretty easy to tell, and the men who are willing to let the office place be turned into a bar over that are every bit as unprofessional as the girl who started it, imo.

    Lastly, you will never be able to fully take sex out of the office, as people spend way too much time with each other there, and tend to have hormones rushing through their bodies, especially with the opposite sex being in the building. Yes they should be able to keep it for later, and no, that will never fully happen ever.

    It would be nice if guys could learn to look more subtly at it though ,especially in the workplace, the way girls do. But then Im told (scientific research study I read I believe), that men have louse peripheral vision, and so are rather...stunted in the subtleness department
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  6. #86
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    I have never seen a woman showing cleavage who wasn't intentionally pushing it in my face. For a gazillion different reasons - yes. For themselves - yes. Still in my face and still they expect an outcome and still get "upset" if they don't get it.

    I don't want to argue. My knee jerk reaction is messing up my life and I was hoping to perhaps find a way to come to terms with the behavior in some way.
    I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult. Im trying to say that it doesn't really matter what you do, people are going to act and react. You cannot change the behavior of others to suit your needs, even if changing it would be for the better of everyone.

    Men stick their thoughts and opinions into my life all the time without my welcoming it. It doesn't matter what I am, what I have done in my life.. their predetermined ideas on what I should do and how I should be are there. I'm not going to be angry and jaded all the time just because I can't control what they do and say. I don't think you ought to be so angry either.. Women are sticking their cleavage in your face all the time, trying to get a reaction.. If they don't get one, they're upset and pouty.. But to me, the story should end there. Why be angry at all women? You said so yourself, aren't there exceptions? It sounds like your particular work environment is the issue, not women as a whole.. The office I worked in, women were very feminine and modest in their attire.. It will be slightly different everywhere you go.

    For me, the exceptions I come across in my life make dealing with the masses completely worth it. For you, you seem jaded and just want to get angry at everyone.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  7. #87
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    Look at all the trouble this issue is causing! I think the better question would be, "is it necessary to bust (lol) out the cleavage?"
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  8. #88
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Look at all the trouble this issue is causing! I think the better question would be, "is it necessary to bust (lol) out the cleavage?"
    I think even that would start a slew of back-and-forths.. Not much is really necessary in life. So what is deemed necessary outside of essentials is again very different for everyone.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

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  9. #89
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Personally, if I wanna look anywhere near like I dont have a sausage where my chest is, a V-neck is sort of a must. And that leads to a little bit of cleavage usually. So yes, to me it is a must.
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  10. #90
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Personally, if I wanna look anywhere near like I dont have a sausage where my chest is, a V-neck is sort of a must. And that leads to a little bit of cleavage usually. So yes, to me it is a must.
    Speaking strictly at work perspective, this shouldn't matter. Who cares if you have sausage-chest-without-cleavage-syndrome? You're there to do work, not look good.

    But people spend much of their time at work.. some 60-80 hours a week! Much more time than they spend at home.. I say, if something like clothing, fashion, and looks is important to you, then the work place is a necessity for that.. It is where you spend a lot of your waking hours. And most people don't always change work clothes the instant they get home.. They go out to dinner, grocery shop, consolidate trips. I'm expected to be completely modest 100% of the time just because someone else had a bad experience and it'd be better for women overall somehow to be more modest at work? @_@ I just don't get it... What if the person I am trying to impress is my dear husband, who I am going to dinner with after work? Do I owe everyone an explanation for every single time that I dress in anything less than Jane Eyre attire?

    I wonder if the people who disdain cleavage at work also really dislike people dressed slouchy and slobbish because, that too could be perceived as unprofessional... even though the slobbish clothing could cover every bit of flesh and is even unflattering to the female body. Is tight clothing worse than well-fitting clothing with cleavage? Is it okay for flat-chested girls to wear whatever they want because they don't have anything anyways? If you're size DD, are you just doomed and fuck you if you want to dress nicely?

    ... I never realized people put so much thought into the appearances of others. I couldn't tell you what any of my friends were wearing yesterday, nor my co-workers, even though we all tend to wear the same things. I couldn't tell you what I was wearing the day before yesterday. It seems like its just too much... Id have gray hairs by now if I worried about clothes this damn much, moreless what other people's clothes were.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

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