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  1. #71
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    that's specifically why I quoted it.
    I honestly couldn't take that comment seriously. It's so ridiculous and infuriating that there's not much else to do but laugh.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Why am I going to be judgmental if a girl, whom may or may not work hard (how should I know?) plays the game the system has created and comes out on top? If there was no game in the first place, she'd probably be content with working and being recognized for it. So why should I automatically judge her?
    Maybe because if nobody played the game, the game would end? Who creates "the system" if not the players?
    Maybe because by playing the game she is making life harder for you, me, and all the women who come after her?
    Men are expected to dress modestly in the workplace. The don't stride about in assless chaps draping themselves over the water-cooler to get ahead. Why should there be a different standard of modesty for women?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #73
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Maybe because if nobody played the game, the game would end? Who creates "the system" if not the players?
    Maybe because by playing the game she is making life harder for you, me, and all the women who come after her?
    Men are expected to dress modestly in the workplace. The don't stride about in assless chaps draping themselves over the water-cooler to get ahead. Why should there be a different standard of modesty for women?
    Its easy to say that though, and less easy to do it. Not everyone is a crusader going for the big picture. I don't think I blame the people that did not participate in the civil rights rallies because they needed their job to feed their families. I don't blame people that don't donate to world hunger relief companies while they buy groceries themselves. People pick and choose their battles with the world.

    NOT wearing cleavage, and dressing modestly, if every woman in the world did it right now and forever on more, would NOT change the fact they are treated differently in the work place. There was a time where wearing cleavage was just not the appropriate thing to do in ANY situation, it was deemed as more than just attention-getting. Women dressed modestly all the time, and were still paid less, hired less, and treated unfairly. So I don't think the cleavage is really the problem or the big issue.. I think people are griping about a lot of nothing. The players are the men, not the women. The game goes on whether you play or not as a woman. I dressed modestly at my work, put just the same amount of hours in as the other hard workers, and I was still frowned upon for not wearing make-up (to the point where my boss bought me a make-up set to use, thinking I just didn't have the money for such things) and not dressing feminine enough in the office. It wasn't about cleavage, or not having it, it was about being a woman in the office. I don't think the standards of how women look should be based on the opinions of others.

    But couldn't a business simply fix all of this by having a dress code and enforcing it? Uniforms, dress codes, etc. seem to do the trick just fine.. if you (a business) give people free reign, don't get all pissy and bitchy when someone else's idea of what's appropriate is different from yours. You choose to work where you work. If you want the freedom to wear a polo shirt instead of a tie, I don't think you should feel inconvenienced that a woman is wearing cleavage exposed instead of a cardigan.

    Men have never dressed provocatively for attention, so I don't feel it is the same exact comparison. There really isn't a market, a style, or a desire to dress provocatively *anywhere* for men.. So I don't see how it can compare to the subject. If there was a desire within most men to dress more provocatively and expose more flesh, I could see a stance.

    My personal opinion is that you are there for work, and your work attire should not attract any attention AT ALL. I prefer uniforms in the work place because everyone looks the same, there's no worrying about what to wear, and there are no gray areas. But if someone showed up to work in a string bikini and everyone allowed it somehow, I really would not be affected what-so-ever. If a man showed up in a speedo, I really wouldn't care either. I'm there for work, not to ogle my teammates. What they wear is irrelevant to me and what I need to do.

    People who feel that inconvenienced by others really should find a job where they work alone. People have different opinions and stances on everything. The naked body is a good thing to me. Many pagans feel like nakedness is natural and it is generally accepted, not something to be disgusted at or shocking. Not that I want to see a bunch of people naked at work, but the naked body is not offensive in and of itself. So I don't see how a portion of a body exposed is offensive. People have different opinions. Businesses should fix it however they can if they so desire, otherwise people ought to stop crying about it so much.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It seems a bit selfish to me, this post.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Are you the same type of person that assumes people are homeless because they're lazy bums that refuse to work?
    No. This cannot be further from what I think. I read earlier today some such comments and it hurt me a lot because I can imagine how some people are just born with the short end of the stick and elitist thinking doesn't allow us to give them a chance to get up on their feet.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    That being a female comes first in the eyes of the men I work with. It doesn't matter if I work hard, or not at all. I am a female, and that is what men around me see.
    I don't want to invalidate your opinion. Just point out that it is based on assumptions about huge categories of "men" and "women". Did ALL the men react the SAME way in your life? Weren't there exceptions?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Why am I going to be judgmental if a girl, whom may or may not work hard (how should I know?) plays the game the system has created and comes out on top? If there was no game in the first place, she'd probably be content with working and being recognized for it. So why should I automatically judge her?
    I can't answer those questions for you.

    I have to draw the line somewhere for myself. The system is not in my head, making the decisions instead of me.

    This is my reasoning. I am not judging anybody. I am not judging you. I am sorry you've decided I do that. I understand that position.

    But I am in my position and my position is that if you are going to treat me, and my efforts and my time, as a brainless dick with no human dignity, I am going to treat you like somebody who is treating me like a brainless dick.

    Thanks for the interesting perspective.

    PS If I were a woman with breasts, I'd probably use it to my advantage. It's not like I don't understand that.

  5. #75
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    But couldn't a business simply fix all of this by having a dress code and enforcing it?
    Most do.

    Men have never dressed provocatively for attention, so I don't feel it is the same exact comparison. There really isn't a market, a style, or a desire to dress provocatively *anywhere* for men..
    Gay scene?

    Women who objectify themselves will be objectified. So will their colleagues who do not.
    There is no reason to expose yourself in a professional work place other than to create a sexually-charged environment, which has a negative effect on everyone. It's inconsiderate, whether you are happy to tolerate it or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #76
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    There's a difference between what's ethically or morally right and what is practically in your best interests. Rocking the boat is generally intentional. If you rock the boat without even knowing it woe be your promotional prospects. :P
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  7. #77
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Istbkleta View Post
    No. This cannot be further from what I think. I read earlier today some such comments and it hurt me a lot because I can imagine how some people are just born with the short end of the stick and elitist thinking doesn't allow us to give them a chance to get up on their feet.
    Thanks for clarifying.

    I don't want to invalidate your opinion. Just point out that it is based on assumptions about huge categories of "men" and "women". Did ALL the men react the SAME way in your life? Weren't there exceptions?
    If there weren't I wouldn't be where I am now in my career. But the exceptions are not the majority. I work in a mostly male environment. As a whole, I don't see a lot of women going to work in provocative, revealing attire.. but I also don't find the same things 'provocative' and 'revealing' as some people. to some, one button undone on a shirt is enough to be a total slut in the office. But I think if cleavage was not a problem, men would attack something else--skirt lengths, whether they wear their hair up or down, make-up, jackets.. there's always someone with different opinions. Why am I going to bother trying to please everyone everywhere when I can just worry about myself?

    I can afford to wear a low-cut cute shirt because I lack cleavage *entirely* I would not expose anything at all by wearing a square-cut collar.. but if another woman liked, and bought that same shirt, she may have cleavage exposed. Do I think she's a bigger slut than me because the shirt wears differently on her?

    I can't answer those questions for you.

    I have to draw the line somewhere for myself. The system is not in my head, making the decisions instead of me.

    This is my reasoning. I am not judging anybody. I am not judging you. I am sorry you've decided I do that. I understand that position.

    But I am in my position and my position is that if you are going to treat me, and my efforts and my time, as a brainless dick with no human dignity, I am going to treat you like somebody who is treating me like a brainless dick.

    Thanks for the interesting perspective.

    PS If I were a woman with breasts, I'd probably use it to my advantage. It's not like I don't understand that.
    Certainly it is unfair that women assume so easily as well. But I don't think that the stance is, "I am wearing a provocative shirt because I work with men and it might distract them." I don't think many women put THAT much thought into it. Those percentages in the pictures were, on the whole, fairly low.. in fact, the ONLY high percentage was the 80% "I wear exposed cleavage because it makes *me* feel better." It doesn't matter what the opinions of others are. If I feel more comfortable, and work better in a pair of pants than a dress, why should it matter to anyone else? And if a woman feels more confident, and mature and lady-like to dress in a way that compliments her body and she gets MORE work done that way, why the hell should I care what she looks like?

    What you find provocative is not going to be the same as me. I would find a short cut skirt more provocative than any amount of cleavage. I would find fish-net stockings more provocative than heavily-applied make-up. Everyone has their own opinions.. It's too vague to simply say "women with cleavage exposed are trying to show off to men and get attention."

    This sort of mentality is dangerous.. it starts to walk on the line of "She obviously wants my attention, look how she's dressed." and we all know where those mentalities tend to go.

    I'm not saying I've never come across flirtatious, annoying women that obviously flaunt around and try to get as little work done for as long as possible while moving on up in other ways. but I think it is more of an insult to the men in the office, and a bit pathetic of her, than it is degrading to me and what I am doing. That woman is not me. Just like the lazy guy that thinks he can laugh and joke and kiss-ass-with-the-boss his way into not doing work has nothing to do with me.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

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  8. #78
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    No cotdamn boobies out and about for me.
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  9. #79
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Most do.

    Gay scene?

    Women who objectify themselves will be objectified. So will their colleagues who do not.
    There is no reason to expose yourself in a professional work place other than to create a sexually-charged environment, which has a negative effect on everyone. It's inconsiderate, whether you are happy to tolerate it or not.
    Even the gay scene has much more modest clothing on a whole than women do now-a-days. Short shorts, high-cut skirts, cleavage, shoulders exposed.. Those sort of things are always there. I think a bit of cleavage being worn is not inappropriate in and of itself anymore than wearing short sleeves or a skirt is. A woman in pants, a jacket, natural make-up, flats and a bit of cleavage is not less appropriate than a woman wearing short-cut skirt, a shirt covering her cleavage that's tight fitting and heavily applied make-up and sandal high heels. SO much more skin is exposed. I don't think it should be up to me anymore than it is up to you to decide what is appropriate. The business should decide, and everyone ought to leave it at that.

    If the business does not deem it appropriate, they will write it into their dress code. Otherwise, the opinion of others should not matter in the work place. It is not insulting to me to see another woman's cleavage. It is not insulting to me that women feel more beautiful in dresses than they do pants. I used to feel this way.. but it was a childish and selfish mentality. It isn't my call what makes people feel better and look good. That's for individuals to decide.

    I find I get objectified no matter WHAT I wear. 95% of my wardrobe is cargo shorts, skating shoes, and baggy t-shirts with no make-up. What I wear makes little difference anymore. I used to think that dresses and skirts automatically made me more objectified and I avoided them entirely--but it was naive thinking. Men simply voiced their opinions more when I wore those things. I found it almost a relief when I grew up a bit--I could weed out the annoyances immediately instead of having guys pretend to be my friend until they see me clean up a bit and dress a bit nicer, and then suddenly it's "Ive always liked you." and other such nonsense that broke my heart when I realized many of my male friends were not thinking we were equals like I thought they were.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  10. #80
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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