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  1. #61
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post


    A homeschool co-op has the potential to become just an unregulated bureaucracy, with less accountability than today's public schools. Sort of like a neighborhood association.
    On the contrary, because it's small and highly invested, it has the potential to be the most accountable. Strangers don't care nearly as much about each child as parents who know those children. Much less distant school officials and government bureaucrats.


    This is simplistic. A situation in which one parent in every family has to forego a professional life (and the income it might bring) to coordinate and deliver education is incredibly wasteful of human resources. You might find homeschooling your own children to be personally fulfilling, but one person's individual notion of fulfillment is a bad yardstick for public policy decisions. In a democracy, it is everyone's job to worry about the issues that face society, at least as long as one wishes to belong to that society. "Government by the people" works only when people educate themselves on the issues and get involved.
    Yes, it is. Simplicity works best. Contrast that with the way our burgeoning government works now. See a correlation?

    And teaching children is a part of the human experience. What more important issue is there, really? Parents should not procreate if they will shirk this most important facet of raising human beings. If they do shirk, it falls to society to pick up the slack, yes, but that should be the exception, not the rule, as it currently is set up.


    That is easy to say if one has adequate income. If not, it becomes a choice between paying rent, buying food, going to the doctor, or if you had your way, educating one's child.
    It is not society's responsibility to support one's existence. There are other, creative ways to live within one's means.


    Our educational system is already decentralized in that there is substantial local control of school districts. The problem is not that the federal or even state government is overcontrolling education and failing to respond to change. These problems exist on the local level. School districts are not responsive enough to parents, and have lost sight of their primary goal which is educating students and preparing them academically for adult life. Parents do not realize how much control and influence they have, much of which is already codified in public law. They too readily just do what they are told by teachers and administrators, whether it is beneficial for their child or not. What we need instead is for parents to bring the homeschool co-op mentality to the public school system, so they have the input and control, while getting the resources, consistency, efficiency, and accountability of the public but local system.
    They still are not decentralized enough, however. Burned out teachers are not going to be very receptive to little Johnny's particular INTP-adhd personality as much as his mother/father/neighbor would be.
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  2. #62
    What is, is. Arthur Schopenhauer's Avatar
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    I was homeschooled. I would not recommend homeschooling unless the parent has an excellent understanding of the child's learning material, if the parent is not lazy with educating their child, if the parent prevents their child from being lazy and if the child is prevented from becoming socially inept.

    My parent's chose the homeschooling route because it was the cheapest alternative...needless to say, adapting to society and catching up academically has been an issue for me.

    Edit: I think that nurturing your child's academic interests is also very important. The material I used covered only the basic study groups such as math, literature, science, etc. and because of this I was never introduced to material such as programming or computers -- both of which are my current fields of study.

    I had no idea what I wanted to do after high school.
    INTJ | 5w4 - Sp/Sx/So | 5-4-(9/1) | RLoEI | Melancholic-Choleric | Johari & Nohari

    This will not end well...
    But it will at least be poetic, I suppose...

    Hmm... But what if it does end well?
    Then I suppose it will be a different sort of poetry, a preferable sort...
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  3. #63
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    On the contrary, because it's small and highly invested, it has the potential to be the most accountable. Strangers don't care nearly as much about each child as parents who know those children. Much less distant school officials and government bureaucrats.
    This may be the theory of homeschool co-ops, but human nature tends to thwart that in practice. It becomes a small pond in which wanna-be big fishes can exercise authority. Yes, each family will put the needs of their own child(ren) first, perhaps as it should be, but the authority structure is inadequate to balance the sometimes competing needs and wishes in a fair way. The co-op will be run or organized not by those with the best skills or ability to do so, but with the most time on their hands (if you are lucky), or the biggest ego complex, or the greatest desire to be a busybody. I have seen this play out in a number of neighborhood associations, which work on the same principle. There is no requirement for transparency, and once contractual agreements are signed all round, there is very little legal recourse. Elected groups like school boards, by contrast, are bound by sunshine laws, recall provisions, and always by the next election. It is not perfect, but is better in practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    And teaching children is a part of the human experience. What more important issue is there, really? Parents should not procreate if they will shirk this most important facet of raising human beings. If they do shirk, it falls to society to pick up the slack, yes, but that should be the exception, not the rule, as it currently is set up.
    Feeding and clothing our familes is part of the human experience, too. Should all of us become farmers and tailors, then? We can abolish the Dept of Agriculture and the FDA. How about taking care of our kids when they are sick? We wouldn't be facing a doctor shortage now if more parents would stop outsourcing so much medical care. And the big one - protecting our families from outside dangers. Just think what a boon for decentralization it would be, not to mention a financial savings, to get rid of the Dept of Defense and rely on each family to defend its own home.

    The logical outcome of your perspective is one in which every family is completely self-sufficient, providing for all of its own needs. If this is how you prefer to live, I am sure there are places where you can do so. For those of us willingly remaining members of a society, however, we acknowledge and expect greater interdependence than that. We get much better products as well as economies of scale by consolidating production and delivery. We can get further efficiency and greater fairness in distribution by consolidating payment, as with local emergency services.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    It is not society's responsibility to support one's existence. There are other, creative ways to live within one's means.
    It is society's responsibility to ensure that opportunities exist for those who put forth the effort to take advantage of them. You can't make the horse drink, but if there is no water, he has no choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    They still are not decentralized enough, however. Burned out teachers are not going to be very receptive to little Johnny's particular INTP-adhd personality as much as his mother/father/neighbor would be.
    The problem is not insufficient decentralization, it is insufficient parental involvement. A homeschool co-op, by virtue of its novelty, may help parents over this mental block, but there is nothing preventing them from asserting their very real authority now -- except their own reticence. And teachers would be less burned out if they were allowed to focus their energies on teaching. With smaller classes and teaching assistants, they will be able to address Johnny's ADHD in most cases.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #64
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This may be the theory of homeschool co-ops, but human nature tends to thwart that in practice. It becomes a small pond in which wanna-be big fishes can exercise authority. Yes, each family will put the needs of their own child(ren) first, perhaps as it should be, but the authority structure is inadequate to balance the sometimes competing needs and wishes in a fair way. The co-op will be run or organized not by those with the best skills or ability to do so, but with the most time on their hands (if you are lucky), or the biggest ego complex, or the greatest desire to be a busybody. I have seen this play out in a number of neighborhood associations, which work on the same principle. There is no requirement for transparency, and once contractual agreements are signed all round, there is very little legal recourse. Elected groups like school boards, by contrast, are bound by sunshine laws, recall provisions, and always by the next election. It is not perfect, but is better in practice.
    I haven't really seen that in practice though. Cooperatives are usually of agricultural origin, but they tend to be the most healthy (organic food coops, farmers market coops, etc.) and more receptive to the needs of the community. I think this is because they understand that there are things more important than the almighty dollar. There is no reason this wouldn't extend to educational coops, health coops, etc.


    Feeding and clothing our familes is part of the human experience, too. Should all of us become farmers and tailors, then? We can abolish the Dept of Agriculture and the FDA. How about taking care of our kids when they are sick? We wouldn't be facing a doctor shortage now if more parents would stop outsourcing so much medical care. And the big one - protecting our families from outside dangers. Just think what a boon for decentralization it would be, not to mention a financial savings, to get rid of the Dept of Defense and rely on each family to defend its own home.
    Sorry, but if we adopt a more decentralized, grassroots models for our needs (for education, food, health, and well-being) we wouldn't need the FDA and other government oversight operations. In fact, I can name several problems the FDA has directly caused me and people who are independently minded. One is making it a federal crime to sell raw milk to local, interested consumers. Another is all the herbal hubbub regarding supplementation. Another is making it virtually impossible to sell some homemade goods without expensive licensure, even when consumers are informed there is no licensure. The federal government takes away our choice, and tells us what we can consume and not consume. It is a direct violation of our liberty.

    Families have been trained to rely (needlessly and, in many cases, tragically) on allopathic physician-based illness care, or costly, worthless 'preventive' care. It takes time to reeducate about how little one actually needs to see the doctor. It doesn't happen overnight. But the AMA lobby is HUGE, as you can imagine, so it won't be easy.

    But, yes, people need to take more responsibility all around, not just regarding the educating of our children.

    And I'm all for having a strong military to protect us.


    The logical outcome of your perspective is one in which every family is completely self-sufficient, providing for all of its own needs.
    No. My perspective means one is interdependent. But interdependent upon one's own little community. It actually allows for MORE interaction of individuals and families because a person and family will be more motivated to get involved if it directly affects/benefits them or their neighbor. That is just human nature.

    I'm talking about reclaiming our society, but doing it by making small little pockets of networks within larger networks versus bulky governmental systems that are not sensitive to the needs of individuals and families.


    It is society's responsibility to ensure that opportunities exist for those who put forth the effort to take advantage of them. You can't make the horse drink, but if there is no water, he has no choice.
    Society is a representation of human endeavor on a small or large scale, depending. I believe society owes no one anything, but would be more caring and accommodating to those in need if each person felt more fulfilled and needed.


    The problem is not insufficient decentralization, it is insufficient parental involvement. A homeschool co-op, by virtue of its novelty, may help parents over this mental block, but there is nothing preventing them from asserting their very real authority now -- except their own reticence. And teachers would be less burned out if they were allowed to focus their energies on teaching. With smaller classes and teaching assistants, they will be able to address Johnny's ADHD in most cases.
    It's hard for people to get involved when they feel like it's difficult or unremoved; or it is so broken getting involved wouldn't make much difference.

    People like to get on board with things that have potential and feel exciting. Build it and they will come and all that.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  5. #65
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Oh man, I have definitely seen the busybody effect on co-ops here. There has been MAJOR drama around here on account of our mfing FARMER'S MARKETS, of all things. It's just sad to see the granolas bicker. But these little insular communities tend to get incestuous and blow up over some tiny bone of contention, without any outside air.

  6. #66
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I haven't really seen that in practice though. Cooperatives are usually of agricultural origin, but they tend to be the most healthy (organic food coops, farmers market coops, etc.) and more receptive to the needs of the community. I think this is because they understand that there are things more important than the almighty dollar. There is no reason this wouldn't extend to educational coops, health coops, etc.
    See Ivy's response. I know it happens in homeowners associations.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Sorry, but if we adopt a more decentralized, grassroots models for our needs (for education, food, health, and well-being) we wouldn't need the FDA and other government oversight operations. In fact, I can name several problems the FDA has directly caused me and people who are independently minded. One is making it a federal crime to sell raw milk to local, interested consumers. Another is all the herbal hubbub regarding supplementation. Another is making it virtually impossible to sell some homemade goods without expensive licensure, even when consumers are informed there is no licensure. The federal government takes away our choice, and tells us what we can consume and not consume. It is a direct violation of our liberty.
    We can balance that against all the people who are affected when contaminated meat and produce gets into the stores. If the entire food production system became more decentralized, that would limit the damage that could be done by a single supplier, but I'm still not sure customer response would be enough to rein in those who are being sloppy and cutting corners to the point of a health risk. How many people would have to get sick or die before the public would figure out they shouldn't buy [whatever] from the offending supplier? I don't know about you, but bake sales and farmers' markets abound in my area, and don't seem to be hampered by excess regulation. We even have a dairy that sells raw milk.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Families have been trained to rely (needlessly and, in many cases, tragically) on allopathic physician-based illness care, or costly, worthless 'preventive' care. It takes time to reeducate about how little one actually needs to see the doctor. It doesn't happen overnight. But the AMA lobby is HUGE, as you can imagine, so it won't be easy.
    Much of the unnecessary care is driven by the overall litigiousness of our society, and not by medical necessity. Doctors themselves admit this, as their careers are at stake, along with patients' well-being. The only way to reform this is to make malpractice law more realistic.

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    But, yes, people need to take more responsibility all around, not just regarding the educating of our children.

    And I'm all for having a strong military to protect us.
    So, you agree with outsourcing certain functions, but not others. That is generally how these arguments fall out. [/QUOTE]
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #67
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I think it can work in an absolutely ideal situation, with parents who have great teaching personalities, control over their kids, lots of spare time and money (stay at home mom + money for activities), a large social network with other homeschooling parents, the knowledge and resources to teach complicated subjects, planning classes so that kids can go to college later, and most importantly the motivation to actually follow-through with all those plans.

    Most of the time some of these elements are missing, IME, and the kids I've known haven't really turned out well as a result. Unfortunately, the vast majority of homeschooling parents tend to think they meet those criteria regardless of whether they actually do.

    I tend to think it's only a good idea if your kids have severe special needs that can't be addressed by your school system, or in cases of severe bullying where there are no alternative schools, or if your public school is really really awful or unsafe. But sure, it can work well in a ideal situation. Although I'm not sure how you'd do things like real science labs without equipment and chemicals that aren't available to the general public. I think in most cases you're better served by teaching them at home in addition to public school - home projects, field trips, museums etc don't require full time homeschooling at all.

    @kyuuei - If they think it's too difficult without even trying it, I'd be really hesitant to persuade them to do it. It usually is far more difficult than expected, if you want to do it right, and it is a tremendous amount of work and requires a stay-at-home-parent. You have to be really dedicated to the idea for it to work out well and it sounds like your sister isn't really.

    edit: I was homeschooled for about 6 months, although I don't think it's that relevant since it was so short. Bad experience, but I'm drawing more on my experiences with people who were homeschooled for years/entire K-12.
    -end of thread-

  8. #68
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    kyuue - If they think it's too difficult without even trying it, I'd be really hesitant to persuade them to do it. It usually is far more difficult than expected, if you want to do it right, and it is a tremendous amount of work and requires a stay-at-home-parent. You have to be really dedicated to the idea for it to work out well and it sounds like your sister isn't really.
    Seconded. It really is a big undertaking that I don't think would succeed if the person needs to be persuaded and encouraged to do it.

  9. #69
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I tend to think it's only a good idea if your kids have severe special needs that can't be addressed by your school system, or in cases of severe bullying where there are no alternative schools, or if your public school is really really awful or unsafe. But sure, it can work well in a ideal situation. Although I'm not sure how you'd do things like real science labs without equipment and chemicals that aren't available to the general public. I think in most cases you're better served by teaching them at home in addition to public school - home projects, field trips, museums etc don't require full time homeschooling at all.
    This sums it up well. Homeschooling is a good solution in some individual cases, but is bad general policy. Like abortion, it should be allowed, available, and effective, but rare.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #70
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    See Ivy's response. I know it happens in homeowners associations.


    We can balance that against all the people who are affected when contaminated meat and produce gets into the stores. If the entire food production system became more decentralized, that would limit the damage that could be done by a single supplier, but I'm still not sure customer response would be enough to rein in those who are being sloppy and cutting corners to the point of a health risk. How many people would have to get sick or die before the public would figure out they shouldn't buy [whatever] from the offending supplier? I don't know about you, but bake sales and farmers' markets abound in my area, and don't seem to be hampered by excess regulation. We even have a dairy that sells raw milk.


    Much of the unnecessary care is driven by the overall litigiousness of our society, and not by medical necessity. Doctors themselves admit this, as their careers are at stake, along with patients' well-being. The only way to reform this is to make malpractice law more realistic.


    So, you agree with outsourcing certain functions, but not others. That is generally how these arguments fall out.
    [/QUOTE]

    I don't really have anything to respond with. You make some good points.

    If you homeschooled (as I have always done), you might see more benefit than risk/liability in it.

    I know it is superior to our educational system, at least for grade school. We seem to do a better job with high school, but it depends on the school systerm.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


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