• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Does America saddle its educators with too much responsibility for American youth?

Does America saddle its educators with too much responsibility for American youth?


  • Total voters
    17

iwakar

crush the fences
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,877
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I read this article earlier about a large school brawl in my city and I got very annoyed when I read this:
Parents told KTRK that they're sick of the violence the school, and blame the "lack of control" by school officials.
Feel free to remark on this specific event, but it's just one in a sprawling list of events going on concerning schools that is disturbing and controversial, and I am attempting to address the larger social shift I'm seeing.

Disclaimer: understand that I'm not saying all teachers are good. I'm not saying all schools are good. I'm not saying all policies are good. Everything related to bringing up productive young members of society is subject to critical inquiry and should be explored and improved if possible...

All I'm saying is I struggle to see how an event of this size can be laid entirely at the feet of educators. Is too much responsibility being laid at the feet of our educators? Isn't social disorder a large, complex problem that involves parents, community, government, wealth distribution, AND educators? What do you think? Where does the blame lie?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm feeling like we're seeing a backlash from a time when parents did NOT question the authority of educators and had less say in their children's education, so now we're shifting to the other extreme where we blame educators for everything and parents micromanage classroom syllabi. I was dumbfounded when a PTA member and an NYC Dept. of Transportation worker foisted their 'SHCOOL-XING' spelling error onto a local school principal for not having complained about it because it was nearby--
"Regardless of who painted it, someone from the school should have been outside supervising, or noticed it by now," the city worker, who asked to remain anonymous, told the Post.
Are you freaking kidding me?
 

Snow Turtle

New member
Joined
May 28, 2007
Messages
1,335
Not much of an addition. But having read those articles, I'm inclined to agree that those parents are expecting too much from the school officials while limiting the power of these individuals. The phrase isn't "With no power comes responsibility". It's pretty much a lose-lose situation for these educators, especially when I consider values to be taught primarily via parenting first.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
[MENTION=179]iwakar[/MENTION]
yes. Americans think life is this factory line that you can just go through and everything turns out okay
- go to school, get good grades
- go to college
- get a job
- get a house, an expensive car
- have children
- run around staying busy and worrying about everything
- invest in 401K
- you're done

....WRONG! there's more to being a parent than just feeding your kid and sending them off to school. you actually have to teach your child discipline, ethics (in some form or another), life lessons, etc. notice there is almost nothing available in public schools or college for financial education (how to survive on a low income, how to budget, how to manage money, how to pay bills, etc)
 

iwakar

crush the fences
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,877
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
notice there is almost nothing available in public schools or college for financial education (how to survive on a low income, how to budget, how to manage money, how to pay bills, etc)

This is a good point. Kids with no life coping skills or family support are dropped at school each day with this bizarre belief that educators will wave their magic wands and fill in all the gaps created by parents and communities sometime between P.E. and lunch.

They're pretty underpaid for fairy godmothers.
 

Elfboy

Certified Sausage Smoker
Joined
Nov 26, 2008
Messages
9,625
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
This is a good point. Kids with no life coping skills or family support are dropped at school each day with this bizarre belief that educators will wave their magic wands and fill in all the gaps created by parents and communities sometime between P.E. and lunch.
They're pretty underpaid for fairy godmothers.

American culture as a whole likes to oversimplify everything and adhere to a strictly formulaic approach to live (it doesn't work that way. real life is not a 4 answer multiple choice test. you actually have to figure shit out lol)
PS: your avatar is AWESOME :hifive:
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
All I'm saying is I struggle to see how an event of this size can be laid entirely at the feet of educators. Is too much responsibility being laid at the feet of our educators? Isn't social disorder a large, complex problem that involves parents, community, government, wealth distribution, AND educators? What do you think? Where does the blame lie?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm feeling like we're seeing a backlash from a time when parents did NOT question the authority of educators and had less say in their children's education, so now we're shifting to the other extreme where we blame educators for everything and parents micromanage classroom syllabi.
There is plenty of responsibility or blame to go round, and few are shouldering their share of it well. Parents do not always send children to school prepared to learn: adequately fed, dressed, supplied, and supervised. Many do not value true academic accomplishment, or teach respect for people and property at home.

Schools, on the other hand, need to step up to the plate in setting the tone for the school environment. They need to say: whatever goes on outside, or at home, or anywhere else, HERE you will not fight, or bully, or be disrespectful. Then they must follow it up by disciplining violators, rather than imposing blanket restrictions that hurt the rule-abiding with little effect on the culprits. People in authority, however, seem increasingly reticent to sanction individual behavior.

Where I live, schools micromanage student behavior throughout the day in a way that is alarmist and counterproductive. Students are expected to fit some mold, to learn to do things the school's way, rather than develop their own way. This is often at odds with what involved parents are trying to instill in their kids. The frequency of group work, "school spirit" activities, and constant interaction are especially taxing for introverted kids. Critical thinking is not emphasized. Health class is an exercise in politically correct propaganda. PE is given for only 2 semesters over 4 years of high school. Foreign language class is more like language appreciation than a way to learn to communicate. And this is supposed to be one of the better school districts.

Finally, nowhere do I see much parental influence on curriculum. Most schools value or permit parent involvement only for fundraising, or chaperoning parties. Most parents are too sheepish or too trusting to examine curriculum with a critical eye, or to voice their opinions. Curriculum is based upon state standards, the development of which is unfortunately political. Teachers are held to those standards in a way that stifles creativity and tailoring lessons to suit the class or the student. They literally fear for their jobs if they try anything new.
 

Rail Tracer

Freaking Ratchet
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
3,031
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Definitely, when parents learn to properly raise a child, than there wouldn't be as much a problem with your child in the first place. A teacher can only do so much. Not having enough time for the child isn't much of an excuse, you make time for the child even if it is late at night or early in the morning. If you truly care about your child, you'll be spending time making sure the kid isn't getting in trouble during and away from school hours.

Some kids can't be properly "disciplined" without both the teacher and the parents doing something about it.

Even then, so much is put onto the teachers that not all of them can properly teach while taking up the responsibility of what should be the parents. Likewise, the policies for what teachers can or cannot do is so strict that even if teachers were willing to do something.... they can't.... in fear of being sued.
 

mujigay

Intergalactic Badass
Joined
Jun 9, 2011
Messages
532
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
1w9
The issue is that educators are being turned into chaperones and nannies, not teachers. More and more, people seem to want the teachers to play the role of a guidance counselor while completely neglecting any sort of actual teaching. This is breeding a micromanaging environment.
The fact of the matter is, your teachers can't raise your kids. And they shouldn't. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing if a teacher can effectively convince a class of unruly students of the value of a college education and indepence, but they aren't the ones that should be instilling the values in the kids. It should be the parents, the guardians, and the culture. Unfortunately, American culture never really did put a whole lot of emphasis on drive. They just want the magical, wise old teachers to cast a spell and the kids will emerge transformed into healthy, successful individuals. Well, tough luck. It doesn't, and shouldn't work that way.
 

Mr. TickTock

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
38
Enneagram
7
Instinctual Variant
so
.notice there is almost nothing available in public schools or college for financial education (how to survive on a low income, how to budget, how to manage money, how to pay bills, etc)


My state(new jersey) actually just implemented a financial literacy class for such things. It is a required credit to graduate.


It was a terrible and inefficient class though. But at least the effort is there.
 

iwakar

crush the fences
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,877
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Finally, nowhere do I see much parental influence on curriculum. Most schools value or permit parent involvement only for fundraising, or chaperoning parties. Most parents are too sheepish or too trusting to examine curriculum with a critical eye, or to voice their opinions. Curriculum is based upon state standards, the development of which is unfortunately political. Teachers are held to those standards in a way that stifles creativity and tailoring lessons to suit the class or the student. They literally fear for their jobs if they try anything new.

Wow. I don't know where you live, but I've yet to attend a school or go a month without a local newsstory where some parent(s) are complaining about the reading materials required of their students or the appropriateness of sex ed. or the appropriateness of collegiate offerings on controversial topics like pornography in culture or studying religious texts (that aren't biblical). Lots and lots of parents giving schools an earful on what they think should be taught. Some schools react, some don't.
But it's the new norm.
 

FunnyDigestion

New member
Joined
Mar 18, 2011
Messages
1,126
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4
I definitely think if they're going to have to be policemen, as well as babysitters & actual teachers, they should at least be getting paid a bit more than 25 or 30 or however many thousand dollars a year.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
The more time elapses, you might think the newest generations are the responsibility of the older simply because of the ever increasing line of older people involved. On the contrary,the more time elapses, the more the newest generations will be responsible to salvage what they can from that pool of fuck-ups and bright ideas given to us by the older generations. Anything else is just spoon feeding.

Teachers serve a similary function as doctors did in your earlier post, [MENTION=179]iwakar[/MENTION]. They're there to do their jobs and respect the beliefs of their students. Granted, I don't really give a shit what a college prof. does. if he wants to chew out some kid for his/her beliefs in full view of everyone else, he should contend with the student and not have to worry about uppidy parents. High School doesn't prepare you enough for that sort of experience unless the student chose to take an elective that might help them. I like the idea that we all test our mettle after making our own choices and too much dependency on public school systems doesn't help us grow. Nevermind the fact that public schools are mostly just daycares.
 

Tallulah

Emerging
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
6,009
MBTI Type
INTP
Yes, we do. Parents have largely abdicated responsibility for raising their kids, and when they are involved, they want to blame the teacher for whatever their kid's doing wrong. It's easier to blame someone else. Teachers have gone from being some of the most respected members of society to the least. They've become a scapegoat for bureaucrats, administrators, government officials and politicians, too. It's largely a pass-the-buck system. Everyone sees there's something wrong with our educational system, and more and more, with our society at large. Instead of seeing the problem in its vast complexity, these groups need to put someone's head on the chopping block. So who gets the blame? Teachers, and teachers' unions. Teachers are now painted as slackers who covet tenure and a short year so they can rest on their backsides. It's much easier for a politician to blame a teacher and look like he or she is "holding people accountable" than it is to spend some time in a classroom and properly assess the situation. That takes time, effort and thoughtfulness. We don't have time for that in today's society. So blaming teachers and putting in "accountability measures" have become the band-aid fix that lulls parents/voters into a false sense of security.

Here in Dallas, teachers have just been informed that their workday will be lengthened by forty-five minutes with no additional pay. Why? Because the school district officials decided they weren't getting a full eight hours a day out of teachers. So we have to hold these slackers accountable, right? Conveniently, no one mentions the hours teachers spend at home planning for the next days/weeks, grading stacks and stacks and stacks of papers, sponsoring after-school activities, attending faculty meetings, and countless other activities that come with the job. Do you think anyone would accept teachers leaving their jobs at the school? Is this guy who's touting "getting the full 8 hours he's paying for" going to give anyone overtime for the other mandatory job-related things he expects of these employees?

Frankly, no one understands what it's like to be a teacher until one has been a teacher. And sadly, many who have been in the classroom forget when they become administrators. I don't know how to fix the problem, but treating teachers with more respect and expecting them to be teachers instead of fairy godmothers would be a good start. It really does take a freaking village, and most of the rest of the village seems to have abandoned their posts.
 

Orangey

Blah
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
6,354
MBTI Type
ESTP
Enneagram
6w5
Yes, we do. Parents have largely abdicated responsibility for raising their kids, and when they are involved, they want to blame the teacher for whatever their kid's doing wrong. It's easier to blame someone else. Teachers have gone from being some of the most respected members of society to the least. They've become a scapegoat for bureaucrats, administrators, government officials and politicians, too. It's largely a pass-the-buck system. Everyone sees there's something wrong with our educational system, and more and more, with our society at large. Instead of seeing the problem in its vast complexity, these groups need to put someone's head on the chopping block. So who gets the blame? Teachers, and teachers' unions. Teachers are now painted as slackers who covet tenure and a short year so they can rest on their backsides. It's much easier for a politician to blame a teacher and look like he or she is "holding people accountable" than it is to spend some time in a classroom and properly assess the situation. That takes time, effort and thoughtfulness. We don't have time for that in today's society. So blaming teachers and putting in "accountability measures" have become the band-aid fix that lulls parents/voters into a false sense of security.

Here in Dallas, teachers have just been informed that their workday will be lengthened by forty-five minutes with no additional pay. Why? Because the school district officials decided they weren't getting a full eight hours a day out of teachers. So we have to hold these slackers accountable, right? Conveniently, no one mentions the hours teachers spend at home planning for the next days/weeks, grading stacks and stacks and stacks of papers, sponsoring after-school activities, attending faculty meetings, and countless other activities that come with the job. Do you think anyone would accept teachers leaving their jobs at the school? Is this guy who's touting "getting the full 8 hours he's paying for" going to give anyone overtime for the other mandatory job-related things he expects of these employees?

Frankly, no one understands what it's like to be a teacher until one has been a teacher. And sadly, many who have been in the classroom forget when they become administrators. I don't know how to fix the problem, but treating teachers with more respect and expecting them to be teachers instead of fairy godmothers would be a good start. It really does take a freaking village, and most of the rest of the village seems to have abandoned their posts.

+100000000

Especially the part about teacher's unions being unfairly blamed and scapegoated for the ills of the entire educational system. Look at this shit, for example.
 

Rail Tracer

Freaking Ratchet
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
3,031
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Frankly, no one understands what it's like to be a teacher until one has been a teacher. And sadly, many who have been in the classroom forget when they become administrators. I don't know how to fix the problem, but treating teachers with more respect and expecting them to be teachers instead of fairy godmothers would be a good start. It really does take a freaking village, and most of the rest of the village seems to have abandoned their posts.

Unless you are a student who is sympathetic of those teachers... because your college and education is getting shitted on by those bureaucrats that rather increase their own self-pay instead of adding (measly) $1,300 to fund a part of the college. Hell, they are telling all the colleges to fend for themselves while they make 10-20 times more than a teacher's average pay. It is no wonder many professors and teachers are getting batty with lowered salary and defunding on materials they use to teach.... it isn't a surprise that students are going ape-shit about the (Quarterly/Semester/Yearly) tuition increases and cuts too while those bureaucrat get bonuses for their less-than-stellar work.

I mean, what do they take us for? Our fees should not be used to pay for their damn bonuses. You know what? THEY should be the ones working for their damn bonuses.

And when we protest, they chicken out.....
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Even then, so much is put onto the teachers that not all of them can properly teach while taking up the responsibility of what should be the parents. Likewise, the policies for what teachers can or cannot do is so strict that even if teachers were willing to do something.... they can't.... in fear of being sued.
These are good points, and a significant part of the problem. Even ~40 years ago when my parents started their teaching careers, teachers were burdened with significant non-teaching duties, much of it administrative in nature with no value added in the classroom. Add to that today the ever-present threat of lawsuits, and the needs of the students, not to mention plain old common sense, take a back seat to defensive teaching tactics. Administrators are afraid to do anything not in lockstep with state standards, leaving little room for creativity and individuality unless a teacher is both daring and well-established.

Yes, we do. Parents have largely abdicated responsibility for raising their kids, and when they are involved, they want to blame the teacher for whatever their kid's doing wrong. It's easier to blame someone else. Teachers have gone from being some of the most respected members of society to the least. They've become a scapegoat for bureaucrats, administrators, government officials and politicians, too. It's largely a pass-the-buck system.

<etc.>
Valid points here as well, many of which echo the complaints of schoolteachers like my parents and several of my cousins.

Some parents, though, do take responsibility for their kids, and take an interest in their education. These parents want their child to actually understand how to solve a math problem, even when the teacher marks it wrong because it wasn't done "her way". They want phys ed to involve playing sports and not just being tested on rules. They want the choir to be limited to people who really want to sing, and not used as a study hall. They want social studies classes to ask why and not just who, what, and when. They want to know whether their child's poor grade indicates difficulty with the subject, or a habit of turning in homework late. They want treatment of their child to be based on his/her behavior, just as assigned grades are based on his/her work. They want honest answers from teachers and administrators when questions of rules or policies come up. They want the PTO/PTA to engage with what the students are learning, and not just hold fundraisers.

The parents I know who are like this, though, don't get much of what they are asking for. They often don't even get the "courtesy" of a form letter in reply. Some of the most involved parents I know have chosen to homeschool, which in a way weakens the public education system even more.
 

CrystalViolet

lab rat extraordinaire
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Messages
2,152
MBTI Type
XNFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
When did this disrespect for teachers become prevelant? It seems like a hellava stressful job these days. The cooperate mentality is pretty pervasive, unfortuantely you can't treat kid's learning like a commodity.
 

Coriolis

Si vis pacem, para bellum
Staff member
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
27,230
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Disrespect of teachers reflects a disrespect of learning, of academic achievement. In parallel with this we have also had a hollowing out of educational content, such that giving students a strong foundation in the basics has been displaced by catering to standards and regulations, with some superficial, glitzy "edutainment" thrown in to hold the students' attention. So, teachers in many schools are now in the unenviable position of delivering an inferior product that people don't value anyway.
 
Top