• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Animal Experimentation? Suddenly, relevant to my life.

Idealatious

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
116
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
91?
Rats are adorable. They are actually one of my favorite animals, believe it or not. Ridiculously, and rather thematically, I am fond of cats, rats, and snakes. And all animals. And yet, I happen to by a psychology major who is edging towards neurology.

...I just enrolled in a class in which I will perform experiments on rats.

I know I can do it. I am absolutely certain. In biology, I dissected a fetal pig, and I did it with relative ease. I'm not very squeamish when I'm doing things (only when I think about things). It was already dead, of course. But I am still absolutely certain that I can implant an electrode into a rat's brain. Give it psychomotor stimulants. Study the effects of nicotine. All as the class description says.

But will I be okay with it afterwards? Will I have to drown the guilt out? ...Will the rats die?

The professor just made a long-distance call to enroll me, and asked if I was okay with this. While reading the description, I was thinking "Awesome! Implanting electrodes into brains? Hands-on research experience like I've never had before that may help me settle on a career path? Amazing!" But now I am realizing what this means. I remember a few years ago telling myself I wouldn't do this. But sometimes I commit myself to doing things, and I do them, consequences be damned. It feels like one of these times.

Oh god. Thoughts?

(Also, I hope this is posted in the right place? I can't find any "controversial issues" or "slight freak-outs due to questioning ones values" forums)
 

JocktheMotie

Habitual Fi LineStepper
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
8,491
Cute-Mouse-Holding-a-little-teddy-bear.jpg
 

Idealatious

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
116
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
91?
...In theory, I'm not opposed to animal experimentation as long as it's not unnecessarily cruel. It's contributes to progress, and science, and all that. But actually participating in it?? I don't know.

But does that make me hypocritical and/or self-righteous? Like all those people who say "It's fine if other people get abortions, but I would never do that..."
 
Last edited:

kyuuei

Emperor/Dictator
Joined
Aug 28, 2008
Messages
13,964
MBTI Type
enfp
Enneagram
8
Hm. Being an animal lover myself.. it's important to remember priorities. I love mice.. but they can't live in the place I'm sleeping at, destroying electrical wiring that can catch a house on fire and such. :shrug: it's just the way it is. Is a wire worth more than a life? apparently it is, at least to me.. In comparison, you seem like a saint.

I just don't see that big of a deal with it. I'd probably feel worse for them if they weren't drastically overpopulated. It's hard for me to feel bad for pidgeons for the same reason.
 

Idealatious

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
116
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
91?
Hm. Being an animal lover myself.. it's important to remember priorities. I love mice.. but they can't live in the place I'm sleeping at, destroying electrical wiring that can catch a house on fire and such. :shrug: it's just the way it is. Is a wire worth more than a life? apparently it is, at least to me.. In comparison, you seem like a saint.

I just don't see that big of a deal with it. I'd probably feel worse for them if they weren't drastically overpopulated. It's hard for me to feel bad for pidgeons for the same reason.

Ha ha; I'm not a saint! I just am not sure if my reasons for killing/hurting/torturing (oh god agh) animals are good enough. I can't justify it in my mind. I mean, if I accidentally hit a pigeon/rat on the side of the road, I wouldn't feel too bad. But on purpose...?

And also if there is an overpopulation of rats; it isn't the kind of rats bred for experimentation purposes. :( I would probably be okay setting up mouse traps; I think. This is different to me.

Also, rats are more adorable than pigeons. Just look at its little face... <3
 

Seymour

Vaguely Precise
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
1,579
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I think there are a couple of issues here.

One issue is "are you okay with the ethics of the situation." It sounds like you are. Note that ethically allowing for animal experiment does not mean that you see animals as worthless, or that you think that the unnecessary suffering of animals is fine.

Another factor is whether your sympathetic/empathetic response to working with research animals will be more than you want to bear. You will likely see some suffering due to the nature of the operation being performed. Some people are better at putting their feelings aside than others. Doctors, for example, often have to learn to mute their emotional responses to their patients in order to detach enough to get the job done. Sometimes they have trouble re-connecting with their feelings once emotional detachment becomes habitual. Others doctors go into specialities that let them avoid or minimize interactions with (conscious) patients and avoid the whole issue that way.

So, how to handle one's emotional reaction does seem like a reasonable concern. I'm not sure how you can know in advance whether it will be more than you wish to handle. I presume you can tough it out for this one class, even if it turns out you hate it. At least then you'll know, and can think about fine tuning your career path so that it doesn't make you emotionally miserable. You might also want to talk to the other people who have taken the class or the professor (assuming the professor seems like someone you can trust). Chances are that at least some others have had to deal with similar feelings themselves.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

failure to thrive
Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
5,585
MBTI Type
INfj
Enneagram
451
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Hi! First off! Did you draw that picture?

Secondly, If you like rats and snakes and stuff like that, you are likely an inxp. :wink: :smile:

Thirdly, it's against my personal morals, but I guess my morals are rather loose, because in this situation, I weigh my morals with a cost/benefit analysis. (does that mean my morals are not absolute? :thinking: ) And I'd derive that the benefit of graduating with a degree outweighs the cost of breaking my moral code. So, yeah.

But I am someone who doesn't even believe in killing spiders. I've done it. The other day I was burning slash piles and there were two dry logs that were obviously the winter homes on a TON of ants. I wish I hadn't done it, but we doused em with diesel and set them on fire, and I kept feeling intensely bad about it.....and wished I hadn't done it. What did it matter that there were two extra logs lying in the field? And why did I do it? I knew it wasn't right according my conscience, but I did it anyway. I think because I was in a hurry or something. Thinking about it makes me :(
 

Idealatious

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
116
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
91?
I think there are a couple of issues here.

One issue is "are you okay with the ethics of the situation." It sounds like you are. Note that ethically allowing for animal experiment does not mean that you see animals as worthless, or that you think that the unnecessary suffering of animals is fine.

Another factor is whether your sympathetic/empathetic response to working with research animals will be more than you want to bear. You will likely see some suffering due to the nature of the operation being performed. Some people are better at putting their feelings aside than others. Doctors, for example, often have to learn to mute their emotional responses to their patients in order to detach enough to get the job done. Sometimes they have trouble re-connecting with their feelings once emotional detachment becomes habitual. Others doctors go into specialities that let them avoid or minimize interactions with (conscious) patients and avoid the whole issue that way.

So, how to handle one's emotional reaction does seem like a reasonable concern. I'm not sure how you can know in advance whether it will be more than you wish to handle. I presume you can tough it out for this one class, even if it turns out you hate it. At least then you'll know, and can think about fine tuning your career path so that it doesn't make you emotionally miserable. You might also want to talk to the other people who have taken the class or the professor (assuming the professor seems like someone you can trust). Chances are that at least some others have had to deal with similar feelings themselves.

Hmm. That sounds like good advice... I'll think about it; Maybe I could talk to someone who's taken the class. Thanks.

Hi! First off! Did you draw that picture?

Yes. :)

Secondly, If you like rats and snakes and stuff like that, you are likely an inxp. :wink: :smile:

You think?? It's possible. I've been recently reexamining this website: http://www.infjorinfp.com/ In most ways, I seem INFJ except for with Fe vs Fi... I don't relate that much to Fe. :shrug: I need to do more research...

Thirdly, it's against my personal morals, but I guess my morals are rather loose, because in this situation, I weigh my morals with a cost/benefit analysis. (does that mean my morals are not absolute? :thinking: ) And I'd derive that the benefit of graduating with a degree outweighs the cost of breaking my moral code. So, yeah.

But I am someone who doesn't even believe in killing spiders. I've done it. The other day I was burning slash piles and there were two dry logs that were obviously the winter homes on a TON of ants. I wish I hadn't done it, but we doused em with diesel and set them on fire, and I kept feeling intensely bad about it.....and wished I hadn't done it. What did it matter that there were two extra logs lying in the field? And why did I do it? I knew it wasn't right according my conscience, but I did it anyway. I think because I was in a hurry or something. Thinking about it makes me :(

Ha ha; I wouldn't think that your morals are loose! I'm not sure if morals that aren't absolute are bad. And err. ...I don't remember what point I was going to make.

But anyway, I technically don't have to take the class; I could probably find one to replace it. Ugh.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

failure to thrive
Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
5,585
MBTI Type
INfj
Enneagram
451
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Hmm. That sounds like good advice... I'll think about it; Maybe I could talk to someone who's taken the class. Thanks.



Yes. :)



You think?? It's possible. I've been recently reexamining this website: http://www.infjorinfp.com/ In most ways, I seem INFJ except for with Fe vs Fi... I don't relate that much to Fe. :shrug: I need to do more research...



Ha ha; I wouldn't think that your morals are loose! I'm not sure if morals that aren't absolute are bad. And err. ...I don't remember what point I was going to make.

But anyway, I technically don't have to take the class; I could probably find one to replace it. Ugh.

Nice drawing. :)

Yeah, that website is dec for infx noobs...
 

Idealatious

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Messages
116
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
91?
Feel free to comment if you want, but whew. I've settled it. Here's an update; in case anyone wants to know:

I decided not to take the course. I spoke with the professor to help make my decision, and she said that most of the experiments we would be running would be behavioral ones - but there would be a stereotaxic surgery, after which the rats would be euthanized. I can dissect a dead rat; I can run behavioral tests on rats; and I know I would be fascinated and gain a lot from doing so. But I would feel absolutely horrible if I killed a rat, possibly even indirectly.

I currently haven't researched much about animal experimentation - but I know that often is difficult to apply animal research to humans, especially on non-primates; often animal lives are just wasted. And I just imagine, years from now, thinking back to when I killed animals... ugh. I know I could do it. But I also know that at my heart I am an animal lover who likes rats, who has volunteered at animal shelters, and who has kept many small rodents as pets - it would be incongruous of me to kill rats.

How sacred is life, I wonder. People have struggled with this argument with abortion, killing for the good of many, capital punishment, assisted suicide, etc etc. Why do we struggle so hard to live and let others live? The rats will die anyway - another student will take my place in this class and the rat I would've killed will be killed by this person. What does it matter? Does guilt matter? Do we overrate life because life is all we know? There are so many issues here; I won't even get into my confused thoughts on life/death.

Sure, this is a kind of sizable missed research opportunity. Sizable as in, in my tiny life as a psychology major. But I'll find another lab, do research that doesn't make me feel like a horrible person. She said she'd let me visit her lab if I want; show me around sometime. That's cool. Maybe I won't take her up on it, though. Not sure. I do feel a bit hypocritical for supporting animal research, being emotionally able to do animal research, and yet not doing it when it benefits me to do so. But I also would feel hypocritical doing it. I'm trying to live my life so later I won't regret the things I did or did not do, so... this is a small, uncertain step in that direction.

TLDR; I'm not going to do any animal experimentation! No use being wishy-washy about it; since I've unregistered from the class. And yet, inevitably, I will continue to be philosophical (AKA wishy-washy) about it.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
oh, I came here to ask if you had any specific questions, since I do a lot of work with mice, including killing them (and I'm also a huge animal lover, but not vegetarian). Sounds like you found your answer, though.

food for thought - how do the ethics of killing rodents for research compare to the ethics of killing cows for food?

Not that there's an answer, it's just an interesting question to me.
 

xisnotx

Permabanned
Joined
Sep 24, 2010
Messages
2,144
I'm trying to live my life so later I won't regret the things I did or did not do, so... this is a small, uncertain step in that direction.
That's all you can do, really.

Personally, I would have done the class. I don't think animal experimentation is something that isn't conducive to good morality. Is it not moral to enhance the human condition? Surely, in the same way that killing another animal (or plant for you vegetarians) to eat is justifiable, killing another animal in order to enhance the human condition (through scientific experimentation) is equally justifiable?

That's not to say it isn't regrettable, but sometimes, we have priorities, and uncomfortable decisions will be made. It's part of what makes us human.

Still, I can see the other side, and quite honestly can't condemn anyone who chooses to align themselves closer to it.
 
Top