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The cheap state school or the expensive ivy?

G

Glycerine

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What about one of the service academies? They are definitely on par with the Ivies and if you get in, it's free (besides a five year commitment in the military) and you get monthly stipends.
 

INTPness

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http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/page+5

I won't bother to post other rankings. I look at the rankings every year and they're all pretty similar to each other. Princeton Review has the best rankings - you can see rankings by "professor quality", "classroom experience", "party college", "best library", etc, etc, ad finitum.

But, using this particular list as an example, we have the following state schools in the top 50 of the rankings:

Penn (Ivy)
UC (several: Berkeley, LA, San Diego, Davis, Santa Barbara, and Irvine)
Virginia
Michigan
North Carolina
Washington
Texas
Wisconsin
Illinois

All very, very solid state institutions, always considered to be in the top 50 institutions in the nation.
 

Randomnity

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Great program at a school you like for nearly free vs. marginally better program at Ivy League costs, with probably marginal subsidies? Why are you even thinking about it?

There are some fields where UT would be just fine (for example, anything in the petroleum industry, or within the state of Texas). In other, if not most, fields, the Ivy League degree will absolutely provide a substantial advantage compared to alternatives. It's terribly unfair, but there are doors available to you as a Columbia grad that simply aren't there for a graduate of a state U, particularly in this day and age.

There's something important to note here - you don't go to college to get an education. An education might be a nice byproduct, but the reason you (assuming you're middle class) go to a university in the United States is to secure a signifier of elevated social class, or, when we're euphemizing it, that a person "has what it takes" to make it in a certain field.

Just something to keep in mind.

Guess what - there are also doors that are open to someone who is not in debt, which are firmly shut to someone with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt. For example, buying a house, or (responsibly) having children at a somewhat early age, or having the freedom to switch careers/jobs, or not having the stress over your head of always having to pay a large chunk of your salary (whether or not you have a salary) towards student loans every month, which are not discharged even in bankruptcy. Just something to keep in mind.

Also your last paragraph is complete lunacy. :wacko:
 

mujigay

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What about one of the service academies? They are definitely on par with the Ivies and if you get in, it's free (besides a five year commitment in the military) and you get monthly stipends.

No. Absolute not. I'm going to come off as close-minded and possibly stupid, but I absolutely refuse. My father was in the military, my uncle and grandfather were in the military, I lived on military bases for a fair part of my life, and I have had more than enough of a taste of that environment. I know enough to say that the military, regardless of what sector of it, is not where I want to be.

My areas of interest is not the hard sciences either, so I'm taking the Ivy Leagues seriously for that reason. If I was interested in the hard sciences, I would go to UT and laugh all the way to the bank. However, I have an interest in law and the humanities....so, I thought an Ivy might provide that edge.

Does anyone have any info on the UCs? Particularly Berkeley and LA? I'm also interested in those.
 

INTPness

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Does anyone have any info on the UCs? Particularly Berkeley and LA? I'm also interested in those.

They are both top notch institutions. I think once you've lived there for a year, you would then be considered a resident and would pay considerably less tuition. I have a very conservative ISTJ friend who went to Berkeley on a scholarship - and after 1 year he absolutely hated it because, as he said, "They protest EVERYTHING. If you pick your nose, there will be protestors. If you stare at a tree wrong, there will be protestors. Screw you guys. I just want to go to school in peace!" Haha. So, he moved down to UCLA (happily forfeiting his scholarship) and said he was WAY happier at UCLA. Triple majored at UCLA and (I think?) got a 4.0 through all of it. Communications, History, and Poli Sci. Now he's a CPA.
 

onemoretime

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But, using this particular list as an example, we have the following state schools in the top 50 of the rankings:

Penn (Ivy)

Contrary to what it may seem at first, the University of Pennsylvania is a private institution.

Great program at a school you like for nearly free vs. marginally better program at Ivy League costs, with probably marginal subsidies? Why are you even thinking about it?

Possibly because it's a big decision, and one that will affect the trajectory of the rest of one's life?

Guess what - there are also doors that are open to someone who is not in debt, which are firmly shut to someone with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of debt. For example, buying a house, or (responsibly) having children at a somewhat early age, or having the freedom to switch careers/jobs, or not having the stress over your head of always having to pay a large chunk of your salary (whether or not you have a salary) towards student loans every month, which are not discharged even in bankruptcy. Just something to keep in mind.

No one's saying that this isn't the case. However, I will say this - I took that route, going with an essentially paid-for state school over a higher prestige, more expensive school. I can't say that I regret the decision, but at 18 years old, I had no clue what the trade-offs involved, nor did I understand how the college prestige game worked. All I had was people telling me that going to college was the important part, and that it was essentially the same anywhere. Flash forward a few years later, and I begin to realized that in many respects, that's a complete load of horse manure.

Also your last paragraph is complete lunacy. :wacko:

Sure. You tell yourself that.
 
G

Glycerine

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No. Absolute not. I'm going to come off as close-minded and possibly stupid, but I absolutely refuse. My father was in the military, my uncle and grandfather were in the military, I lived on military bases for a fair part of my life, and I have had more than enough of a taste of that environment. I know enough to say that the military, regardless of what sector of it, is not where I want to be.

My areas of interest is not the hard sciences either, so I'm taking the Ivy Leagues seriously for that reason. If I was interested in the hard sciences, I would go to UT and laugh all the way to the bank. However, I have an interest in law and the humanities....so, I thought an Ivy might provide that edge.

Does anyone have any info on the UCs? Particularly Berkeley and LA? I'm also interested in those.

Understood. That's not close minded at all. :). I would say if you can find a reasonable way to pay for the Ivy, go for it but if not, a highly ranked state school is probably the way to go. Good luck.
 

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Contrary to what it may seem at first, the University of Pennsylvania is a private institution.

Possibly because it's a big decision, and one that will affect the trajectory of the rest of one's life?

No one's saying that this isn't the case. However, I will say this - I took that route, going with an essentially paid-for state school over a higher prestige, more expensive school. I can't say that I regret the decision, but at 18 years old, I had no clue what the trade-offs involved, nor did I understand how the college prestige game worked. All I had was people telling me that going to college was the important part, and that it was essentially the same anywhere. Flash forward a few years later, and I begin to realized that in many respects, that's a complete load of horse manure.

Sure. You tell yourself that.

Depends. Computer Science and Engineering at San Jose State? You are sure as hell going to have Silicon Valley right beside you even with other more "prestigious" institutions like Stanford being close by and Cal Poly being nearby Los Angeles.

Generally speaking, the employer may look at what college you have gone to for the first few years, after that, it depends more on what you have done over in your line of work over what college you have been through. You can still be in a prestigious college and still be unemployed. You CAN also make networks with your professors. I've seen professors who have been to prestigious colleges and ones that weren't so well known. I've also known professors who have work in places like Intel and Apple and have seen their previous students actually working for their respective companies. Heck, I don't even have to go to the bay area for college because there are a couple of software companies here as well as some government ones.

Network
Internships
Make it happen.
 

INTPness

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Contrary to what it may seem at first, the University of Pennsylvania is a private institution.

Is it? Wow. Interesting. Learn something new every day!

Make it happen.

This. Harvard Shmarvard. Wherever you go to school, just kick butt once you graduate and your career will go well. And that goes for any industry, and entrepreneurial as well.
 

Coriolis

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Therefore, if you're going into the hard sciences, the decision is a simple one - you go to the university where they have the most intensive program that focuses on the sorts of questions that makes you the most excited. So, if you're into meteorology, you go to a school like Penn State, or the University of Oklahoma (my alma mater). If you're into experimental physics, do what you can to get to Berkeley. If you're into computing or theoretical physics, both Caltech and MIT are impressive options.
On the other hand, if you are interested in science, you will probably go to grad school, where science is about all you will study. Any breadth of education - exposure to humanities, arts, even other fields of science - will have to be done as an undergrad. This is what I did, and those seemingly unrelated courses, and activities done just for the enjoyment/experience of it have served me in good stead.

As far as I understand it, it's the complete opposite: the prestige bonus is almost entirely conferred upon undergraduates, and much attenuated for grad students. Even for those on a professorial track, the Ivy League bonus comes less from the prestige of the institution itself, than from the types of projects and research you are exposed to, not to mention the available financial resources. After a certain level, though, you start running into prestige barriers, especially when it comes to things like funding one's own projects. That's not nearly as much of a problem for the undergrads, provided that they developed a robust social network.
I agree for the most part. In grad school, it is your research advisor and your thesis/dissertation topic that is important. Run-of-the-mill state schools even can have some faculty who are real authorities in their field, and if you work with them and publish, your (grad) credentials are as good as anyone else's. Having an Ivy Leage undergrad background on top of this (not instead) is icing on the cake. It is about the experiences available to you, the things you were exposed to, and rightly or wrongly suggests that you are a higher caliber of student to begin with.
 

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Depends. Computer Science and Engineering at San Jose State? You are sure as hell going to have Silicon Valley right beside you even with other more "prestigious" institutions like Stanford being close by and Cal Poly being nearby Los Angeles.

More apt would be getting an MBA at Santa Clara University. Santa Clara University is considered a 'regional college or university' according to US World News and Report etc. rankings. However, it is respected in Silicon Valley (I live here, I know :p) and it's a joke that an MBA from SCU and some visionary from Stanford always team up to make some dream team start up. The SCU person is seen more as more the bread and butter, bookeeping, COO role and the Stanford grad is seen as the idea juice.

Also, prestige is important, it's as important as you make it. It is very real. If you only plan on doing undergrad, then your undergrad's prestige is more important than the grad school you never go to. Trump's kids "studied business at Wharton" but at the undergrad level only but they still use that name to effect.

When I talked to someone at the USC b-school she mentioned regionalism is a factor. East coast schools are better known for business, a b-degree from NYU Stern is nationally recognized and will open doors for you because the network is everywhere. She said the grads from USC tend to stay more in CA, and if that's what I wanted then great, but it was a factor to consider...or maybe it was UCLA...I forget now. :p
 

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More apt would be getting an MBA at Santa Clara University. Santa Clara University is considered a 'regional college or university' according to US World News and Report etc. rankings. However, it is respected in Silicon Valley (I live here, I know :p) and it's a joke that an MBA from SCU and some visionary from Stanford always team up to make some dream team start up. The SCU person is seen more as more the bread and butter, bookeeping, COO role and the Stanford grad is seen as the idea juice.

Also, prestige is important, it's as important as you make it. It is very real. If you only plan on doing undergrad, then your undergrad's prestige is more important than the grad school you never go to. Trump's kids "studied business at Wharton" but at the undergrad level only but they still use that name to effect.

When I talked to someone at the USC b-school she mentioned regionalism is a factor. East coast schools are better known for business, a b-degree from NYU Stern is nationally recognized and will open doors for you because the network is everywhere. She said the grads from USC tend to stay more in CA, and if that's what I wanted then great, but it was a factor to consider...or maybe it was UCLA...I forget now. :p

USC is more regional, UCLA is more national. But if it was a CS/Engineering field, I would still stay around Silicon Valley anyhow.

I mean, you can technically just work in Silicon Valley for a few years before moving somewhere else without worrying about debt while the other might have to worry about a 100k+ debt. But if an MBA is sought for, that is when I think people should decide to go for a more prestigious college like Stanford or Berkeley(or maybe an MBA that is payed for by your employer :D.) As long as you go for the internships, employers will see that you might have interned at Cisco, Intel, or Google and during that process, you can network with those you worked with while as an intern to get to other places/branches. No matter if someone goes to a prestigious college or not, internships and networking make all the difference.

And wow, somehow SJSU went 20 blocks down in the ranking.

I know nothing about Law Colleges though... except Harvard and Yale.... lol.

----------------
(owwwww confusing myself trying to put the right words.)

What I am saying is

Further down the road with an undergraduate degree, employers will more likely look at your job experience rather than where you get your degree. If you are going to get a degree at Stanford or Berkeley and not work your butt off compared to that guy at USC (or even SJSU) chances are is that employers would rather have that guy at USC rather than the prestigious college. Prestige does not make a big difference if you decide not to put in the time and effort.

And another note, if I were allowed to pick between USC or Stanford I would pick Stanford since both cost about the same (and Berkeley cost less for in state students.)
 

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Yeah, I'm not trying to say in the long run it's all about your college name. it's about your job experience/history other successes, but college and networking and prestige can definitely help open doors at the beginning and down the road. I do remember though that kinda what you are saying ^^ You have to look at everything in the whole - however, at 17 or 18 as undergrad is your first 'adult step' and you have no work history, that's why where you go is considered so important. Of course, the equation changes by the time you are thinking of grad school, especially as certain grad programs almost require (or outright require) you to have related work experience. I remember someone who works at Cisco or...who's that defense contractor? LOL on of "those" places. They would pay for your masters and you could choose to go to Stanford Or literally walk down the hallway to have SJSU (San Jose State University) literally teach the classes you need at work. Super convenient. I remember thinking, well dang, SJSU sounds convenient but Stanford is definitely more prestigious and higher ranked overall. HOWEVER, then I realized, well dang, you're working at Cisco and your employer values you enough to pay for your masters and bring the classes to you, hmmm, probably 'prestige' is not as big of a deal here. It's more like getting a job certificate for your existing career while you're on an upwar trajectory, just something you kinda check in to do.

That kind of 'I'm just checking this off my list because I need to do it for my job" btw is why a lot of people from feeder companies get MBAs and that's also why a lot of admissions boards hate that kind of passionless, almost entitled kind of application.

That wasn't a tangent. It is *related*! :p

Oh, and I disagree tha education is similar across the board at the undergraduate level. Sometimes an education is just abou conveying technical data or historical survey of all the important cases/names/dates etc., but the real quality of an education comes in how much critical thinking etc. is encouraged. That's why some people prefer liberal arts colleges that offer smaller classes and have a certain philosophy about a broad education etc. So it also depends on what you are looking for. My experience at my liberal arts undergrad and summer school at UC Berkeley and then later career training in community college where all very different terms of the learning environment and way you accessed your education and the way it's transmitted to you. Different strokes for different folks and for different phases of your life/career.

Again though, I think most 17 year olds don't even really know or care about these things - 'differences in educational environments and teaching philosophies'. At least, that's my impression and also memory of things from that age and the college selection process. But, if you know what you want in terms of major/career already or learning environment styles and preferences, definitely factor that in.
 

ygolo

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If you go to an Ivy, make sure someone other than you pays (not your parents either). If your transcripts are stellar, you should have no problem getting a scholarship.

Having gone to both a state school (a rather good one), and an Ivy equivalent (it out ranks most Ivy League schools), I must admit there can be a difference. But I think it is hard for that difference to show up in a typical undergrad experience. You'll have more interesting choices in an Ivy. But if you were doing engineering or a hard science, I would say it makes little difference in undergrad. Accredited programs in these follow pretty much the same curriculum. In the liberal arts, things may be different.

If you plan to do a lot of undergraduate research or go on to grad school/professional school... Doing research or being an apprentice with the people leading their fields is quite different from a mentoring perspective than simply working with researchers or practitioners in the field. That being said, there are great researchers and practitioners at state schools too.

Also, your competition will be tougher at a top 10 school. If you are used to being at the head of the class, things may be different for you. From a planning perspective, getting into Harvard Law after State U liberal arts is better than Harvard Undergrad followed by State U Law. Of course two Ivys back to back is better still.

Another thing I noticed is that Stanford had a lot more people with entrepreneurial aspirations than Virginia Tech. But if you join the right clubs, and hang out with the right crowd, you could be part of a college start-up anywhere.

Whatever you decide, try your best to get scholarships.

[...]networking make all the difference.

I wish i had known how true this is. I am a horrible networker. Even if you go to Stanford, and work for Intel for some time, if you don't keep in touch with the people you meet, finding jobs becomes a difficult task.
 

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I was accepted to several state schools, a couple of prestigous private schools and the Ivy of my choice back when I applied for college (I tested well, and somehow growing up in a blue collar background in a rural area made me more appealing :shock:)... I chose the state school that bribed me the best and spent my first 4 years with a full scholarship that covered even textbooks and room and board, which was awesome :cheese:

really, in the end, it's what you make of your educational possibilities that matter the most, not where you went. Get involved in research, study abroad, WORK abroad, get involved with the student government... when you are involved in things you are associating with the people who ARE the motivated kids who are going to get somewhere! A lot of my college friends are now in Ivy League schools (or equivalents) for grad school on full scholarship thanks to what they accomplished as undergrads... meaning that they don't owe a ton of money on thier educations as they would had they gone the Ivy League for everything route... plus, at a state school you get more experiences that way because everyone ISN'T rushing to be the top dog in everything all of the time... that means that you'll end up getting to do and try a lot more, which will look good on your resume if nothing else, not to mention that the experience is a lot of fun and such :)

I'm glad that I chose to attend the state school, because I got to do a lot of things that I wouldn't have been able to have afforded had I attended an Ivy League :yes:
 

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If you go to an Ivy, make sure someone other than you pays (not your parents either). If your transcripts are stellar, you should have no problem getting a scholarship.

Having gone to both a state school (a rather good one), and an Ivy equivalent (it out ranks most Ivy League schools), I must admit there can be a difference. But I think it is hard for that difference to show up in a typical undergrad experience. You'll have more interesting choices in an Ivy. But if you were doing engineering or a hard science, I would say it makes little difference in undergrad. Accredited programs in these follow pretty much the same curriculum. In the liberal arts, things may be different.

If you plan to do a lot of undergraduate research or go on to grad school/professional school... Doing research or being an apprentice with the people leading their fields is quite different from a mentoring perspective than simply working with researchers or practitioners in the field. That being said, there are great researchers and practitioners at state schools too.

Also, your competition will be tougher at a top 10 school. If you are used to being at the head of the class, things may be different for you. From a planning perspective, getting into Harvard Law after State U liberal arts is better than Harvard Undergrad followed by State U Law. Of course two Ivys back to back is better still.

Another thing I noticed is that Stanford had a lot more people with entrepreneurial aspirations than Virginia Tech. But if you join the right clubs, and hang out with the right crowd, you could be part of a college start-up anywhere.

Whatever you decide, try your best to get scholarships.



I wish i had known how true this is. I am a horrible networker. Even if you go to Stanford, and work for Intel for some time, if you don't keep in touch with the people you meet, finding jobs becomes a difficult task.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I rank pretty high, but my school is absolutely cutthroat, I know my worth. We get "prodigy" kids on a regular basis, the kind that make the news for solving thirty-year old math problems, or working with prestigious research institutions and sweeping world competitions.

I like the advice about networking, that's definitely something I'm going to work to improve, after all the things I've heard here.
 

ygolo

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Doesn't bother me in the slightest. I rank pretty high, but my school is absolutely cutthroat, I know my worth. We get "prodigy" kids on a regular basis, the kind that make the news for solving thirty-year old math problems, or working with prestigious research institutions and sweeping world competitions.

I like the advice about networking, that's definitely something I'm going to work to improve, after all the things I've heard here.

What school do you attend, if you don't mind me asking?.
 
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In most cases, where you go to college doesn't matter that much unless its your dream to work in some prestigious law firm or something similar. What matters is that you have the degree and some relevant work experience.
 
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