The cheap state school or the expensive ivy?

[mujigay]

I'm gearing up for college applications (yes, it's a bit early to most, but in my mind, it's never too early) and I'm caught in a bit of dilemma.

I'm applying to seven schools, actually, but the top two are the University of Texas and Columbia University. I have a pretty fantastic transcript, not to brag, and I'm about 80% certain that if I apply to Columbia early decision, I'll get in (for Ivy Leagues, applying early decision is pretty much the only way to get in, unless you've got some kind of gob-smacking application), but if I do that, I lock myself into that school. Furthermore, I'm not sure what kind of financial aid I'll be getting, and as I'm sure most of you know...it's not cheap to go there.

If I go to the University of Texas at Austin, I'm pretty much guaranteed to get in, and it'll be practically free. My father was in the military, and state scholarships for children of veterans combined with academic awards I've picked up would make it very, VERY, cheap to go. However, I've been desperate to get out of Texas, and the thought of another four years here kind of weighs me down.

Advice?

 

[kelric]

I know more than a little bit about this (and that's all I'm saying -- if you want details PM me ). There are a few things I'd take into consideration. Foremost among them are financial reasons. Having a ton of debt at age 22 coming out of undergraduate school is *not* a situation you want to put yourself in. Having said that, I strongly, strongly suspect that if you choose to apply early decision to Columbia, get accepted, and then don't get a financial aid package that's sufficient, generally you *can* back out under those circumstances. Ask them. They may not advertise the fact (if they accept you early decision, they want you there -- and although nonprofits are *infinitely* better than for-profit institutions, there are "business realities" for them too), but realistically they've almost got to give you a way out if you simply can't afford it. There's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of if that happens to you -- private schools like Columbia (and I'm not picking on it, it's a great school) are terribly expensive.

Another thing to take into consideration is your intended major. There are probably circumstances where an expensive school is worth it. Not that the coursework will be so much different, or the learning environment so much better (the differences between schools you'd actually consider, public or private, are probably minimal), but there are cases where the name matters. It's unfortunate, but true. If you're looking at *extremely* high-paying careers, it won't matter as much. But note that a LOT of people have an idea of what they want to do career-wise when they enter college, and then change their minds. I certainly did.

Most important, though -- college, especially undergraduate school, is largely a matter of getting what you put into it. Some schools may *force* you to push yourself more, but it's pretty unlikely that any of the actual material you'd be exposed to at Columbia is fundamentally different from anything you'd see at UT (assuming that the specific programs you're interested in are offered at both schools). You may have to be a bit more proactive, but the variance between the two's not so much educational as it is extracurricular.

My advice? Check with Columbia about the possibility to reject an early decision admission based on financial reasons if the aid offered isn't sufficient for your needs. If they will accept that as a reason to pull out, take the shot. Also apply to UT. See exactly what you'll be dealing with, financially (generally you'll probably find out about your financial offer within days after your admission). Then really think hard about the difference in cost and the difference in what you'll get (including life experiences of living in NY, which certainly do exist... but Austin's a pretty good town too -- I used to live there, and still have family there).

It's mercenary of me to say it... but I'll state it again... think long and hard about taking on a lot of debt for college. It's no exaggeration to state that being low-debt or debt-free coming out of college is literally a life-changing circumstance, when compared to starting your adult life with a lot of debt. I don't know your financial circumstances, and old, relatively highly endowed schools like Columbia do have the ability to offer large aid packages. Depending on your circumstances, it may not be *that* unequal cost-wise. Give them a chance, but ask them to prove viability to you before you accept.

 

[INTPness]

UT is a great school. I'd take UT (and no debt) over Columbia (with a mountain of debt) any day of the week. At your age, I probably would have chosen Columbia because I would have thought, "Who wouldn't want to go to Columbia!?", but now that I've been through college and in the workforce - it just doesn't matter that much. By going to UT, you're saving yourself a ton of money. College really is about "getting out of it what you put into it" - no matter where you go. Suck up 4 more years in Texas - get a 4.0 at UT, then move to New York with your great education and kick some butt.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

I would probably echo what Kelric said...college choice is probably less important than you think for most careers, and almost certainly less important than the amount of debt you will incur. It's possible that at an Ivy there will be an "old boys network" that you could exploit, but for the most part I think it's more important how you distinguish yourself at your college than which college you attend.

Some information is missing from your OP, too...If you've decided on a major, I think it's more important to evaluate the program for your major at each school rather than the overall quality of the institution. For instance, if you were going to major in English, then Columbia would be the clear choice even though UT also offers English. And if you were going to major in film, then UT is the clear choice even though Columbia also offers film.

A last thing I'd keep in mind is that if you have any desire to attend graduate school, then consider UT strongly. The more you save on your undergrad education, the more money you free up for grad school. I'd have never been able to attend grad school if I didn't get my undergrad education for free.

 

[mujigay]

I have looked into the programs for the major(s) I'm interested in, and Columbia is without a doubt better, but UT isn't bad either, which makes it a doubly hard decision. The thing is, I'm also very internationally focused, and am speaking two extra languages, studying a third at the moment, which made me feel like New York might be a better place to be. However, the points you all have made about about the qualities of education being pretty much similar anyway are very good.

These pieces of advice about debt are valuable to me, thanks for the perspective, guys. So grad school is probably a better investment than undergrad, as far as career opportunities go, or am I mistaken? Is it better that I hold off on undergrad spending and go to one of the big schools for grad school?

 

[INTPness]

I've heard it put like this before: the name of the school you graduate from only matters during the first 5 years after you graduate (very early in your career, it can help you land some positions that you may not have had access to otherwise) - but outside of those 5 years, nobody really cares where you graduated from. They'll look more at your experience and your post-education, work-related knowledge, ability, and performance. Who cares that you got a 4.0 from Harvard? Can you do high-quality work right now - in this company, in this job - that's all that matters. So, my point is that I don't even think you should spend a ton of money on grad school either. Spend as little as possible on your undergrad and as little as possible on your grad, while still going to a good institution. It just doesn't make sense in today's world to dump 100k (or even 50k) on a degree if you don't have to. If you can go to UT for free - I'd ride that horse until the wheels fell off. I'd go UT all the way through a Ph.D. if I had discounted tuition.

In the workplace, in the real world, all that really matters is how you perform after you graduate. The only exception that comes to mind at the moment is if you were going to be an academic. Then I think where you graduate matters.

 

[mujigay]

Hmmm, makes sense to me, the way you put it.

I wish I had heard this kind of thing earlier in my life. I'm Japanese, growing up in a predominantly Indian and Chinese community, and have heard nothing but the virtues of Ivy Leagues, reasons why you should work your ass off and manipulate transcripts to get in, and seen cousins and families friends practically glorified for getting into Harvard, Brown and the like.

I don't plan on being an academic, I have too much plain business ambition for that, so what you all are saying is really sensible. It's just a totally new perspective to me.

 

[INTPness]

Don't get me wrong - I think it'd be awesome to go to an Ivy League school. It's probably a really good experience. But, quite simply, Columbia isn't going to make or break your life success or your business success or your ultimate happiness. No institution can do that for you. That stuff has to come from within.

 

[highlander]

Don't get me wrong - I think it'd be awesome to go to an Ivy League school. It's probably a really good experience.

I agree with everything that's been said so far - in particular the part about going into debt. Here is a true story.

- Student visits all the Ivy league schools, Stanford and Duke
- Don't like most Ivy's but likes Stanford, Dartmouth, and Duke
- Doesn't get into Stanford and Duke (is heartbroken); wait listed at Dartmouth; does get in at Northwestern, U of Illinois, and Notre Dame
- Picks U of I - wants to "have fun" at the State School
- Gets 4.0 college GPA; Applies and gets into 10 different Medical Schools including Hopkins, Emory, Chicago, and several others
- Is offered Medical School scholarships from three different schools Decides to go to Chicago - which offers a full scholarship.
- Will graduate from one of the best medical schools in the country in a year with no debt from undergraduate or medical school

Would it made a difference is she had gone to Northwestern, Stanford, Harvard? Yes - it probably would. She would owe a lot of money.

I guess if money is no object or you don't need to go into debt to do it, I'd pick the Ivy.

 

[INTPness]

I agree with everything that's been said so far - in particular the part about going into debt. Here is a true story.

- Student visits all the Ivy league schools, Stanford and Duke
- Don't like most Ivy's but likes Stanford, Dartmouth, and Duke
- Doesn't get into Stanford and Duke (is heartbroken); wait listed at Dartmouth; does get in at Northwestern, U of Illinois, and Notre Dame
- Picks U of I - wants to "have fun" at the State School
- Gets 4.0 college GPA; Applies and gets into 10 different Medical Schools including Hopkins, Emory, Chicago, and several others
- Is offered Medical School scholarships from three different schools Decides to go to Chicago - which offers a full scholarship.
- Will graduate from one of the best medical schools in the country in a year with no debt from undergraduate or medical school

Would it made a difference is she had gone to Northwestern, Stanford, Harvard? Yes - it probably would. She would owe a lot of money.

I guess if money is no object or you don't need to go into debt to do it, I'd pick the Ivy.

Great story about making the best with where you're at. She performed well at the state school and everything else fell right into place for her.

 

[EffEmDoubleyou]

So grad school is probably a better investment than undergrad, as far as career opportunities go, or am I mistaken? Is it better that I hold off on undergrad spending and go to one of the big schools for grad school?

At least for me, I didn't mean to imply that a quality graduate education is a better investment than a quality undergrad education. I simply meant that if you already have aspirations to go to grad school, then spending judiciously on your undergrad schooling is a good idea to reduce your future debt. If I'd gone to a more expensive college as an undergrad, I'd have never had the means to go to grad school at all.

 

[Rail Tracer]

I would say stick with the one that will incur the least debt, especially if that place is good/great. I mean, if you can graduate for almost "no money" at your expense, why not?

Once you know that you are financially stable, that is when choosing a graduate school of your choice seems most viable.

There are other places I could of gone besides staying in my city I am currently in. But I decided to choose it because the programs weren't at all half bad and it was pretty much a well known state college (at least to the state,) and I'll be accumulating little debt as opposed to going somewhere else.

I do know your feeling of wanting to get away though.

 

[Sanctus Iacobus]

I know it sounds cliche but how much effort you put into school is the biggest and I can even argue the only factor. For undergraduate work, you're covering the basics and although the teachers will behave more rigorously, besides that and trivial matters like facilities you won't find a difference as far as the effective outcome. For masters and doctorate work, you'll be expected to spend more and more time on your own doing independent research, so again it's a matter of your effort. Even when you're done with college, your personal effort in the classroom is what will get you the kind of professional references that will give you the edge in getting your desired job.

 

[skylights]

Having said that, I strongly, strongly suspect that if you choose to apply early decision to Columbia, get accepted, and then don't get a financial aid package that's sufficient, generally you *can* back out under those circumstances [...] but realistically they've almost got to give you a way out if you simply can't afford it.

that would be my suspicion as well.

Most important, though -- college, especially undergraduate school, is largely a matter of getting what you put into it.

YES. i chose to attend a small state school, even though i'd been accepted to an ivy. graduated with no debt. i LOVED it and was very, very involved there, and had so many awesome opportunities to take advantage of. my transcript and resume are excellent, and i love telling people about my school and all the adventures i had. it might not be an ivy, but i think in a lot of ways it was better than the other school i'd been looking at. at least, better for me.

The thing is, I'm also very internationally focused, and am speaking two extra languages, studying a third at the moment, which made me feel like New York might be a better place to be.

check UT's study away programs - and study abroad! it's entirely possible that you might be able to study in new york - maybe not an ivy, but NYU, perhaps, or a SUNY - for the price of the state school. i have a friend who has just come back from a year abroad, and also studied a semester away. she's spent nearly half her time out and about.

i don't know if it matters to you at all, but i also really ended up appreciating being less than a plane flight away from home when i went to college, which i hadn't anticipated.

most of all in the end i think what's important is to find a school that suits who you are. if you think columbia is better tailored to who you are, then give it a shot. worst come to worst you transfer to UT the following semester or year. i've talked to so many people who have been unhappy at schools that sounded amazing and so many who have been happy at schools that aren't even on my radar, and it always seems to have a lot to do with how well they themselves fit with the school. if you and your school are a good match, the results will be synergistic.

 

[A window to the soul]

@jwn86: I think so too.

@mujigay: I hope you toured both UT & A&M. I went to the University of Texas for a short time and transferred to Texas A&M University. I preferred the campus, camradery and traditions at A&M. I didn't think there was any comparison. I also didn't care much for Austin. College Station is a quaint little college town and it was closer to my hometown. It's nice to be within driving distance, so if you get homesick, you can visit the famdamily on the weekend. That's something you won't be able to do, if you go out of state. I recommend taking tours of all of your prospects. Ivy league would be ideal on a full scholarship and you would get the opportunity to see what life is like outside of Texas. However, if you're taking out loans, I would strongly encourage you to go cheap, in state. I'm thinking your costs will way outweigh your benefits of going Ivy League.

 

[mmhmm]

why are your choices only between columbia and ut?

it helps to get perspective on what your academic
and career interests are. also how good you are
at milking what you've got.

if you're going to school for "hi i'm here to discover
about meeeeeeeeeee!" your criteria to choose will be
different than "hi i have 80% of what it takes to make
me successful, and i know exactly what i have to do to
get the 20% to be where i want to be."

the opportunities that arise due to location, networking,
are very real in schools, even if it's an undergraduate
programme.

i'd think long term. i value my network and access to
opportunities way more than anything else. i didn't
need college to be the experience to open my eyes
to the world, could already do that on my own.

 

[CzeCze]

Think about what school you want to go to regardless of tuition and why.

Are you looking for a specific major or department? Prestige? To be in a particular city? A particular vibe on campus?

For instance for me, I wanted a prestigious liberal arts college with progressive politics on campus that had a strong English department/writing program and I wanted to meet cute girls and be free to be a man hating feminist (HAHAHAHA). I also went to college for the extracurriculars. So going to my women's college was an obvious choice. HAHAHAHHA. If I had known then however there were coed liberal arts colleges that were 'gay and progressive as hell' I would have applied to those and in retrospect gone to one of those instead. The school I went to on paper was what I wanted but in practice was a DISASTER. The first mistake I made was not factoring in location or size AT ALL. I would have done much better going to a larger university (not just college) in a major city or very near one. On the other hand, I had a friend who was gonna go to NYU but she went through some things and decided not to because she thought she'd go crazy basically, never study, and get kicked out. That is actually what ended up happening pretty much to our other friend who went to NYU. You really have to think about what you want your life to look like and how much academics (and specific academics, like departments) are to you. My college was great and well known for certain fields but if you wanted to study say art or theater or dance, it was not a good pick IMHO.

You should have a clear idea of what you want from your college experience and education before you even think about tuition. If money is a bottom line, major factor, then that becomes your primary factor.

I think many folks at age 17 and 18 have no idea really what they want from college. It is truly an overall experience so the size of the school and the location will make a HUGE impact on your life. It's not just about the level of prestige of the school or whatnot.

So I would say instead of making the question "cheap vs expensive" think about what you want. THEN start sorting by cost.

 

[highlander]

the opportunities that arise due to location, networking,
are very real in schools, even if it's an undergraduate
programme.

Can you elaborate on this? I think you're right but there is a question of costs vs. benefits. That is, if you go to the Ivy for undergraduate, what difference does it make really in terms of the network you develop? I think if you were getting a Harvard MBA or something like that, you might make some nice connections. For undergraduate though - as much as going to Dartmouth would probably be an idyllic experience, how much would the connections you make there be worth? You make connections later when you get a job after you graduate - while getting paid for it.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

Choose the cheaper one. The benefit from going to an expensive school isn't worth the difference in price.

 

[mmhmm]

Can you elaborate on this? I think you're right but there is a question of costs vs. benefits. That is, if you go to the Ivy for undergraduate, what difference does it make really in terms of the network you develop? I think if you were getting a Harvard MBA or something like that, you might make some nice connections. For undergraduate though - as much as going to Dartmouth would probably be an idyllic experience, how much would the connections you make there be worth? You make connections later when you get a job after you graduate - while getting paid for it.

for cost-- am an international student, there was
no financial aid available for me, back then we
had to pay it on our own or secure a scholarship.
so perhaps that's the fundamental difference
in opinions.

peer group wise, the nature of connections during
u/g years vs p/g years are very different. and i
don't think everybody needs to do their p/g.

but also in terms of accessibility of resources;
whether it be faculty or adjunct staff; proximity
of participating companies which can all lead to
different opportunities--again, depending on the
student's interests and how focused they are.

it's not so much that it has to an ivy, but i see
the importance of being in a competitive school
that's in the same league.

my undergrad wasn't an ivy ivy but it was
ranked competitively and higher than some of the
ivies. and my masters was at an ivy.

it's like the debate between cal vs stanford.
i got into both cal and stanford, and chose stanford,
not based on the cost, but that it was a better fit.
my friend also had the same acceptance and chose
cal because of the in-state tuition.

however, i don't know enough about UT enough to determine
if it's comparable to Columbia in the broad sense.