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University of Toronto: Yay or Nay?

GZA

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I'm looking into changing schools. I've heard a lot of things about the University of Toronto being very difficult because they distort grades to create a perfect bell curve. The reviews I've read online seem to indicate this is true, especially in sciences. I'm curious if it is as true in arts and humanities classes as well (I'm an english student).

Has anyone attended UofT or know people who have who can tell me a bit about what it is like?
 

Randomnity

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It has a good reputation. I know people who've attended but not anyone I talk to regularly.

Bell curving can be positive or negative for you, of course (and often has little effect) depending where you fall in the curve. I have a feeling that bell curving is common for things like essays, regardless of what university you're at.

One drawback is that Toronto has a VERY high cost of living and tuition is fairly high there as well, I believe.

edit: why are you changing schools? which one are you at now?
 

GZA

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I do already have classes (at Carleton) that use bell curving, especially for essays. My Canadian Lit prof marks essays for an average of 60% and I usually get about a 70% on them... so far these have been last minute essays and I'm sure I could do better if I tried harder. It seems this is typical of the bell curve practice. If every class was like this, I could still get pretty good grades, but getting exceptional grades would be hard. I have other teachers that mark things pretty hard or at least claim to have exceptionally high standards where I have got very good grades on essays (i.e. 90%, and that one was also pretty rushed), but I think my Canadian Lit prof is the hardest and probably best shows what the bell curve is truly like.

As far as I'm concerned getting good grades is a matter of me deciding I want to do it. I have the ability, I just don't always do all the work. I hope if I went to UofT I wouldn't have to work a lot harder to achieve the same thing. Perhaps this ultimately means if I was to choose to do well I could use the bell curve to my advantage. The reality is that right now I don't pay enough attention in class, and simply closing the solitaire window would probably dramatically increase my grades.

I want to change schools for a variety of reasons. Academically I find Carleton's english program is very good for studying literature from around the world but ultimately has a much smaller selection of classes. I switched to english from sociology and I'm finding the english courses available don't really fulfill what I was looking to get out of english. What I want out of english is learning how to write really well, understanding different uses of language for different purposes, rhetoric, ect, which Carleton doesn't really offer. I've looked at english programs around the country and my conclusion is that Carleton is great for anyone who wants to study literatures from around the world and post-colonial theory, but not the best if you are not in to that specifically. I don't think I'll be happy and successful in school unless I'm studying what I really want to, and looking at what classes I'll end up taking in 3rd and 4th year english year I don't feel that excited. Other schools, including UofT, have classes that sound more excited to me and more what I'm hoping to get out of school.

The reason I'm narrowing in on UofT is because I also want to relocate to live with my girlfriend. I'm very serious about studying something I would be more interested in, and if I did not feel the ache for something that suits me better I would probably not be considering moving at all. But long distance relationships suck, especially when despite the distance they are constantly getting better and better, so I figure if I am going to change schools/programs I should also do something else that will make me happy, which is be with my girlfriend. I'll also be closer to home and around some other friends who have moved to Toronto. What I want to do academically I could also do in several schools in Canada (i.e. UBC, McGill, Western) but I'm choosing Toronto because I'd be with my girlfriend, I'd be closer to my family (in London), without actually having to live there (London is a nice town but I feel it would be a regression to move back longer than a summer. Being close is good cause I wish I could go home more and it can be hard from Ottawa). Plus I actually like moving and becoming established in a new place; I want to do a lot of moving before I have kids.

Long story short, I feel like ultimately while there would be many sacrifices involved in moving (not seeing my Ottawa friends as much -they're fantastic people), there are also a lot of things to be gained that I ultimately think will lead to me being happier overall (studying what I want, closer to the fantastic people at home, being with my very fantastic girlfriend, the fun of becoming established in a new city, and after all I'd still only be a bus ride away from my Ottawa friends).

You may recall earlier this year when I was considering going to OCAD. I've since decided I want to start pursuing art on my own time. I've really thought a lot about what I want to school and looked through many different options.
 

Randomnity

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oh cool, I didn't know you were in Ottawa now! UofO here. :hi: (insert required booo Carleton here).

It sounds like Toronto would be compatible for you, then. I'll let someone else weigh in on the bell curve thing since I have very little experience with that, or english in general.

Incidentally, my younger sister has just applied to Toronto for art of some kind. Wasn't clear if it was U of T or one of the other universities there.
 

GZA

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Haha, sorry Random, but we can't be friends any more if you are a Gigi :shrug: hahaha

I think Ryerson's english program is really cool too, but they are just starting it in the fall so I'd have to go back to first year. Not happening! Thank you for your input!
 

Owlesque

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I'm a science student at UofT, and class averages are fairly fixed for first and second year courses because they can have upwards of 800 people in them and some "weeding out" is necessary, so the profs will vary the difficulty of evaluations so that the class fits the accepted distribution as the year goes on. Sometimes there's linear adjustment, but only rarely, because there are usually two or three people per class who get within a couple percent of perfect. Smaller classes don't adhere as strictly to an average, but if it changes dramatically from year to year, the professor has to petition the school to justify why his year was so smart/crappy/whatever.

I can't really speak for the humanities because I only know a couple of non-science people, but the marking will probably be more subjective than the sciences, and I think it will really just depend on the professor and/or the TAs marking them. If you're transferring, though, I imagine you'll avoid most of the serious bell curving from large first/second year classes, and it's a bonus if you're actually interesting in the courses.

UofT (and Toronto) is expensive, but it's a great city once you learn to live with the TTC or just learn to walk places instead. I think if you can justify the pros being more important than the potential cons (which it seems like you can), it's a good decision. Good luck!
 

GZA

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I'm already quite familiar with Toronto because I have close relatives who live there, so I have gone there at least once and roamed downtown many times. My grandparents live a block or two away from Union Station and my cousins live in Cabbagetown. This year my girlfriend has lived there, too, so I have become even more familiar with the neighborhood surrounding UofT, Ryerson, OCAD, Eaton's Centre, and the residential area she lives in a streetcar ride away.

Random, if your sis applied for fine art there is a good chance she applied for Ocad, which is where I was considering going before.
 
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NPcomplete

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During my undergrad years, I took two third-year courses from the history department and as far as I can tell, the grades were not bell-curved at all. My friends who took some other courses from the arts faculty in general said their grades were not bell-curved as well.

I wish I could help more, but I don't know enough people from the Arts Faculty. Nevertheless, good luck!
 

GZA

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That is still extremely helpful. There is a plethora of information on what its like to be a science student (after all, the downtown campus is science oriented), but little on the arts. In fact, what you've just said is in contention for the most informing thing I've heard! :doh:
 
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NPcomplete

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Hmm maybe it depends on the courses and also where you are grade-wise. I was in the 80's and I thought the courses were quite simple (critical essays + research paper + final exam). I'll try to ask around and if I find new info, I'll post it here. :)
 

strychnine

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I study chem but I have not been bell curved. You may be linearly adjusted, but the whole class is equally adjusted. How much your mark changes does not depend on your percentile rank/position in the bell curve. Sometimes though the highest grades won't go up as much as they could on the linear adjustment b/c they don't give out marks over 100 :p

In the humanities courses I've taken, the curving was also non existent.

I am a lazy ass but I've more or less gotten away with it so far...
 
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NPcomplete

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^ Yes I just found that they don't bell-curve (apparently it's illegal?) but they do adjust marks linearly.
 

GZA

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Ok, that would be great! In theory, universities here shouldn't be that different from one another anyway because of how our schools are organized and whatnot. But, thats in theory haha
 

Usehername

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I switched to english from sociology and I'm finding the english courses available don't really fulfill what I was looking to get out of english. What I want out of english is learning how to write really well, understanding different uses of language for different purposes, rhetoric, ect, which Carleton doesn't really offer. I've looked at english programs around the country and my conclusion is that Carleton is great for anyone who wants to study literatures from around the world and post-colonial theory, but not the best if you are not in to that specifically. I don't think I'll be happy and successful in school unless I'm studying what I really want to, and looking at what classes I'll end up taking in 3rd and 4th year english year I don't feel that excited. Other schools, including UofT, have classes that sound more excited to me and more what I'm hoping to get out of school.

In terms of these stated goals, the only Canadian university located in Ontario that's going to meet your needs in the English department is Waterloo. Everywhere else, including UWO, U of T, etc., is going to have a few "hit" classes and a heck of a lot of "miss" classes. I'm speaking as someone who extensively researched this; as someone who has considerable insider information from a number of the field's leaders (because I originally wanted to stay in Canada to study this for my PhD area). My profs hooked me up with the right people to get the right information before I chose to go to do my grad studies in the U.S.

Now, I'm not trying to devalue reasons why you might choose to go to a different program, I'm just trying to make salient the fact that, based on your stated academic goals, the only place that's going to meet that for you is Waterloo. U of T and others are not going to consistently have the things you're looking for out of English. It's important to realize that the classes that are going to "hit" for you are not the specialities of the PhDs teaching the classes, and therefore they're rarely offered compared to the kinds of lit that you're not so jazzed about (for reasons to do with academic politics, the important fact that the academy ranks teaching as, like, 3rd on the list of career priorities for academics, etc.).

So while there might be five courses that look fantastic to you, most programs will only offer one or two of them every two years. In essence, they're all going to be Carlton-esque except Waterloo.

Waterloo has the PhDs who genuinely like and research that kind of English focus, so that's where you need to be going if you rank your academic goals as your #1 priority. Adjuncts will teach what the department leaders want the department as a whole to focus on, which is, of course, areas and specialities that the tenured PhDs value.

I'm going to take on the role of your academic advisor and remind you that while it's your choice, I put my 100% vote in for Waterloo's English. I think this is where your heart will sing, where you will thrive academically, where you will do your figurative brain pushups that will let your thrive intellectually and creatively for the rest of your life. Further, it's really not that far from your gf.

You could both schedule your classes so that you're T-Th heavy and have Friday-Monday extra long weekends. Then you rotate weekends to travel and see each other. Most people dating in university only get to see their SOs once a week anyway, you'd probably see each other more frequently than most couples who live in the same city, since it's a waste of money and time to travel home every night!

It's so totally worth it to go to Waterloo. It will be the environment in which GZA can best thrive, best grow in ways that will let him be a better boyfriend, humanitarian, citizen, person, soul. :yes:

If you have a prof who is well-connected (but not too old, since this movement in English is new) that you trust to give you an opinion that's in your best interests (rather than unconsciously trying to build up the value of their own interests), I'd get their perspective too. I'll bet they'd tell you UBC is #2 for choice and Waterloo is #1 for choice.
 

GZA

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Thanks a lot Usehername! Thats very informative for many different reasons. I think I'm gonna have to PM you for more information! Thanks!

Also, what is linear grade adjustment?
 

strychnine

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Linear grade adjustment is just when everyone gets bumped up by the same amount of marks or the same %
 

Hera

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U of T is a good institution, but not any better than other unis in the GTA when it comes to English. In fact, York's English program is pretty good. I know a few people who transferred out of U of T because they didn't feel like there was a professor-student dynamic at all, and if that's what you're after, YU or RU is better. Otherwise, U of T is great. Don't put all your eggs in one basket though.
 
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