• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

College: And The Future of Spelling and Grammar

Caligula

New member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
88
MBTI Type
xxxx
Enneagram
-
Not to sound incredibly pretentious, but...

I am currently attending a private four-year liberal arts college. When I was a senior in High School, I couldn't wait to go to college and meet intelligent, like-minded individuals. Everyone always told me that the friends you meet in college are the friends you'll have for the rest of your life.

Speaking now after my first semester, I am very disappointed. Most people here don't know the difference between your/you're or when to use I/me. Their spelling is often atrocious. I found that my essays in high school are better than the average "college level" essay. As someone who values grammar/spelling, I wonder why this is.

I don't equate grammar/spelling with intelligence (Hell, Albert Einstein was dyslexic) but this is so prominent that I am absolutely appalled. Wasn't your/you're and their/there/they're something we learned in middle school?

Do people just not care? Is the fault of the school system? Texting? Will the standards change for what's considered "correct?" Should Callie switch colleges? What do you think?

I am open to the idea of changing the rules (i.e. make all spellings the same,) however while these rules are in place shouldn't we follow them? (The SJ in me speaking.)

Edit: I know I'm not perfect. Feel free to ironically point out errors.
 
Last edited:

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I'm really confused about why you think good spelling and grammar is equivalent to "intelligent, like-minded, and interesting people". I think you are being incredibly pretentious in this regard. But to be fair, that stuff bugs me too. I just don't write people off if they aren't grammar experts. You need to loosen up about 1000% if you want to connect with those interesting people.

In my experience, adequate grammar and spelling seems to correlate with extensive reading as well as inborn talent, education (both quality and quantity) and intelligence. Gen Y seems particularly bad at spelling due to texting/internet lingo, but I think that's caused by laziness rather than incompetence, for most.

edit: 5$ on intp. intj?
 

ScorpioINTP

New member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
346
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
6-5
It's not limited to just college. It goes far beyond that. I don't think the OP is being pretentious. This is stuff you learn in grade school and middle school. I find it reflects poorly on someone if they constantly get things like you're/your, our/are, hear/here etc. It doesn't necessarily mean the person has no intelligence, but this is basic stuff and when you graduate college you are expected to be able to communicate effectively. They aren't doing themselves any favors. Send out a resume/cover letter with language like that and see what it gets you. I think it comes down to education mostly and I guess that is why people are always complaining about our education system. I'd guess this is way more common in America than other industrialized nations too (and maybe something to do with the stupid English language).

It doesn't mean you can't be friends with people or that they are bad people, but its a valid observation the OP makes. More people go to college now than ever too and I'd guess the standards have slipped a little.

FWIW I was not an English major either and I didn't read that much growing up. I hated reading and was a jock. I went to decent schools though.

I actually thought this thread was going to have something to do with cyber talk/texting and how people carry it over into RL.

Mind telling us which school this is? I'm curious (PM if you don't want to post here)
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
People need to read more. There is no teaching "correct" spelling and grammar (which, because language is living and developing, doesn't really exist even theoretically never mind pragmatically).

All the research shows that teaching "correct" spelling and grammar makes no difference a student's ability to produce it, and in fact, teaching grammar and spelling decreases their writing skills as a whole because they're paying attention to style to the detriment of the message.

The only way to better this skillset is through reading.
 

IntrovertedThinker

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
96
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I am currently attending a private four-year liberal arts college. When I was a senior in High School, I couldn't wait to go to college and meet intelligent, like-minded and interesting people. Everyone always told me that the friends you meet in college are the friends you'll have for the rest of your life.

Speaking now after my first semester, I am very disappointed. Most people here don't know the difference between your/you're or when to use I/me. Their spelling is often atrocious. I found that my essays in high school are better than the average "college level" essay. Not to sound incredibly pretentious, but I wonder why this is.

Do people just not care? Is the fault of the school system? Will the standards change for what's considered "correct?" Should Callie switch colleges? What do you think?

Edit: I know I'm not perfect. Feel free to ironically point out errors.

Most likely, it's the school system.
Public schooling is going down the drain.
 

IntrovertedThinker

New member
Joined
Jun 21, 2010
Messages
96
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
People need to read more. There is no teaching "correct" spelling and grammar (which, because language is living and developing, doesn't really exist even theoretically never mind pragmatically).

All the research shows that teaching "correct" spelling and grammar makes no difference a student's ability to produce it, and in fact, teaching grammar and spelling decreases their writing skills as a whole because they're paying attention to style to the detriment of the message.

The only way to better this skillset is through reading.

I disagree. I learned a lot more about spelling and grammar through instruction than through reading (although, reading no doubt does help a person familiarize themselves with the appropriate spelling/grammar in any given situation, as you see the proper usage in an actual valid context).

For me, when someone explains "your" and "you're" by pointing out what linguistic function they serve (such as "your" to mean possession and "you're" to mean "you are") it really helps conceptually understand the difference, even without the contextual situations learned through reading that enforce this understanding. So for me, instruction really did help me to cognitively, rationally understand when to use this or that phrase or word in it's correct functional context.

Therefore, I think it's ultimately proof of a failing educational/school system with standards that are ever lessening every year. I give my high school education 5/10, for instance, while collegial study has been about 7 - 8/10. Yet, collegial study relies on skills you were supposed to have gained from high school/middle school—many skills many schools fail to truly teach to their students. So in my experience, college has been wonderful; it's just the lack of pre-collegial skills which bug me—and that's probably because of a faulty public school system.
 

Rail Tracer

Freaking Ratchet
Joined
Jun 29, 2010
Messages
3,031
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
I'm aware that I often mistake using "your" instead of "you're" (rarely is it the other way around.) The biggest thing for me is communication and getting the message across. A few errors aren't so bad, but multiple errors are.

Learn about your particular community (your major.) You may find that some majors are more relaxed when it comes to spelling and grammar. I am also quite sure creative writers would be more relaxed when it comes to their writing.

I'm quite sure you would go crazy seeing something like these on your list of "grammatical errors."

  • TheFutureOfSpellingAndGrammar
  • theFutureOfSpellingAndGrammar
  • TheFutureOfSpellingGrammar
  • theFutureOfSpellingGrammar
  • FutureSpellingAndGrammar
  • futureSpellingAndGrammar
  • SpellingAndGrammer
  • spellingAndGrammer
  • SpellingNGrammar
  • spellingNGrammar
  • FutureSpellingGrammar
  • futureSpellingGrammar
  • SpellNGramm
  • spellNGramm

And really, in this case, it work wonders for IT/programming. In some cases, you'll get pissed off having a syntax error somewhere around your programs for forgetting a semicolon. Even worse, an error that doesn't show up.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Doesn't the title of this thread have a grammar mistake?

"College: And The Future of Spelling and Grammar"

Either the colon is unnecessary or the first "And" is superfluous.
 

Athenian200

Protocol Droid
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
8,828
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
4w5
I think that the majority of people you're interacting with are simply less intelligent than yourself regarding such things, because they don't read as much. People who care about such things often get higher grades, and are more likely to become writers.

As long as people with poor skills in spelling and grammar do not become writers or editors, we will be fine. Why do you think books are always reviewed by editors? They're the people who actually understand grammar and spelling. It's still important for image, even if a lot of people don't pay attention to it. There are quite a few people who notice other people's errors and look down on them for it, even if they make several errors themselves.
 

ScorpioINTP

New member
Joined
Jan 19, 2011
Messages
346
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
6-5
Anyone else see the irony that Americans expect everyone to speak/read English, but can't be bothered to check their own grammar, correct usage of words and spelling? God help us if it ever becomes a requisite to learn Mandarin if/when the Chinese take over. :doh:

Then again, we can't even declare English as our official language.
 

knight

New member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
406
MBTI Type
entp
Enneagram
9
Most likely, it's the school system.
Public schooling is going down the drain.

:yes: some teachers play a movie and leave the class room to smoke cigarettes and when the class ends, allow the students to choose their own grade
 

Caligula

New member
Joined
Jan 17, 2010
Messages
88
MBTI Type
xxxx
Enneagram
-
I'm really confused about why you think good spelling and grammar is equivalent to "intelligent, like-minded, and interesting people". I think you are being incredibly pretentious in this regard. But to be fair, that stuff bugs me too. I just don't write people off if they aren't grammar experts. You need to loosen up about 1000% if you want to connect with those interesting people.
I never said it was equivalent. I think I made the mistake of giving my backstory to make a point. Please excuse me.

edit: 5$ on intp. intj?
I've given up on trying to figure out my type but I've heard INTP and INTJ more often than not. :cheese:


Callie, are you an English/Lit major?
Nope, originally was going to major in Physics/Math. But I've found even Creative Writing majors have this problem.

Doesn't the title of this thread have a grammar mistake?
I knew there'd be at least one. Thank you for pointing it out. ;)

Anyone else see the irony that Americans expect everyone to speak/read English, but can't be bothered to check their own grammar, correct usage of words and spelling? God help us if it ever becomes a requisite to learn Mandarin if/when the Chinese take over. :doh:
Often the exchange students correct the Americans in the class. It really is pathetic.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
And if the standards change, what's so wrong about that?

You're/your and their/they're/there are all homophones. We use homophones that are spelled the same all the time without ambiguity. Is there really such a problem if we decide on one standardized "your" and "their"?

The reason why nonnative speakers correct the grammar of native speakers is because they learned formal grammar first. Native speakers don't learn formal grammar first. They learn normal grammar first, which is something very different.

I'm pretty sure most of the rules in English were standardized just to give older people something to freak out about. If you look at Lewis and Clark's journals, they spelled the same words differently even on the same page!
 

Tiltyred

New member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
4,322
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
468
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I agree it's because people don't read and because rules aren't taught in school. But the problem goes back to at least 1983, when I graduated college, because I was similarly disappointed in Freshman Composition, which I sailed through effortlessly with an A, but which was famous for weeding people out, because people flipped when they had to write for a grade.
 

Randomnity

insert random title here
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
9,485
MBTI Type
ISTP
Enneagram
6w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Word processing hasn't helped, either. The spellcheck simultaneously makes people too lazy to know spelling without it, and makes people think it will catch everything, leading to neglect of grammar and homonyms/etc.

In answer to your original question, no, (most) people don't care. Not at all. :shrug:
 

Usehername

On a mission
Joined
May 30, 2007
Messages
3,794
I disagree. I learned a lot more about spelling and grammar through instruction than through reading (although, reading no doubt does help a person familiarize themselves with the appropriate spelling/grammar in any given situation, as you see the proper usage in an actual valid context).

For me, when someone explains "your" and "you're" by pointing out what linguistic function they serve (such as "your" to mean possession and "you're" to mean "you are") it really helps conceptually understand the difference, even without the contextual situations learned through reading that enforce this understanding. So for me, instruction really did help me to cognitively, rationally understand when to use this or that phrase or word in it's correct functional context.

Therefore, I think it's ultimately proof of a failing educational/school system with standards that are ever lessening every year. I give my high school education 5/10, for instance, while collegial study has been about 7 - 8/10. Yet, collegial study relies on skills you were supposed to have gained from high school/middle school—many skills many schools fail to truly teach to their students. So in my experience, college has been wonderful; it's just the lack of pre-collegial skills which bug me—and that's probably because of a faulty public school system.

But the research doesn't align with your personal experience. There isn't research to substantiate your opinion, in fact, all the research suggests that grammar instruction makes students write worse rather than better.
 

erm

Permabanned
Joined
Jun 19, 2007
Messages
1,652
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
5
I agree that it is a good thing not to care much about spelling and grammar. Only when actual ambiguities arise within context, does it start to matter. Even then not much.

Correct grammar doesn't signify anything important, and is a common vehicle for pretension and bigotry. What's important is whether people understand the concepts behind language, rather than deciding whose language is the more 'correct' one. Flexible and adaptive grammar is far better for that (apparently increasing writing skills and reading comprehension, as well as aspects of conceptual thought).
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
6,704
MBTI Type
ENFJ
But the research doesn't align with your personal experience. There isn't research to substantiate your opinion, in fact, all the research suggests that grammar instruction makes students write worse rather than better.

So maybe these students had very good grammar instruction? :D
 

Tiltyred

New member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
4,322
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
468
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I agree that it is a good thing not to care much about spelling and grammar. Only when actual ambiguities arise within context, does it start to matter. Even then not much.

Correct grammar doesn't signify anything important, and is a common vehicle for pretension and bigotry. What's important is whether people understand the concepts behind language, rather than deciding whose language is the more 'correct' one. Flexible and adaptive grammar is far better for that (apparently increasing writing skills and reading comprehension, as well as aspects of conceptual thought).

Flexible and adaptable grammar is of huge value, especially in spoken communication with other people, but there's a point in writing at which "Well, you know what I mean" isn't good enough. By college, you should be able to write a couple of pages of standard written English without glaring flaws like your/you're, I/me, then/than, or run-ons, comma splices, etc. If not before.
 
Top