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  1. #11
    Senior Member ScorpioINTP's Avatar
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    Anyone else see the irony that Americans expect everyone to speak/read English, but can't be bothered to check their own grammar, correct usage of words and spelling? God help us if it ever becomes a requisite to learn Mandarin if/when the Chinese take over.

    Then again, we can't even declare English as our official language.
    Type 6w5 sp/so/sx I think..I have not fully explored this and just discovered it.

  2. #12
    Senior Member knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedThinker View Post
    Most likely, it's the school system.
    Public schooling is going down the drain.
    some teachers play a movie and leave the class room to smoke cigarettes and when the class ends, allow the students to choose their own grade

  3. #13
    Member Caligula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I'm really confused about why you think good spelling and grammar is equivalent to "intelligent, like-minded, and interesting people". I think you are being incredibly pretentious in this regard. But to be fair, that stuff bugs me too. I just don't write people off if they aren't grammar experts. You need to loosen up about 1000% if you want to connect with those interesting people.
    I never said it was equivalent. I think I made the mistake of giving my backstory to make a point. Please excuse me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    edit: 5$ on intp. intj?
    I've given up on trying to figure out my type but I've heard INTP and INTJ more often than not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    Callie, are you an English/Lit major?
    Nope, originally was going to major in Physics/Math. But I've found even Creative Writing majors have this problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Doesn't the title of this thread have a grammar mistake?
    I knew there'd be at least one. Thank you for pointing it out.

    Quote Originally Posted by ScorpioINTP View Post
    Anyone else see the irony that Americans expect everyone to speak/read English, but can't be bothered to check their own grammar, correct usage of words and spelling? God help us if it ever becomes a requisite to learn Mandarin if/when the Chinese take over.
    Often the exchange students correct the Americans in the class. It really is pathetic.
    Living is never a waste of time.

  4. #14
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    And if the standards change, what's so wrong about that?

    You're/your and their/they're/there are all homophones. We use homophones that are spelled the same all the time without ambiguity. Is there really such a problem if we decide on one standardized "your" and "their"?

    The reason why nonnative speakers correct the grammar of native speakers is because they learned formal grammar first. Native speakers don't learn formal grammar first. They learn normal grammar first, which is something very different.

    I'm pretty sure most of the rules in English were standardized just to give older people something to freak out about. If you look at Lewis and Clark's journals, they spelled the same words differently even on the same page!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #15
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I agree it's because people don't read and because rules aren't taught in school. But the problem goes back to at least 1983, when I graduated college, because I was similarly disappointed in Freshman Composition, which I sailed through effortlessly with an A, but which was famous for weeding people out, because people flipped when they had to write for a grade.

  6. #16
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Word processing hasn't helped, either. The spellcheck simultaneously makes people too lazy to know spelling without it, and makes people think it will catch everything, leading to neglect of grammar and homonyms/etc.

    In answer to your original question, no, (most) people don't care. Not at all.
    -end of thread-

  7. #17
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IntrovertedThinker View Post
    I disagree. I learned a lot more about spelling and grammar through instruction than through reading (although, reading no doubt does help a person familiarize themselves with the appropriate spelling/grammar in any given situation, as you see the proper usage in an actual valid context).

    For me, when someone explains "your" and "you're" by pointing out what linguistic function they serve (such as "your" to mean possession and "you're" to mean "you are") it really helps conceptually understand the difference, even without the contextual situations learned through reading that enforce this understanding. So for me, instruction really did help me to cognitively, rationally understand when to use this or that phrase or word in it's correct functional context.

    Therefore, I think it's ultimately proof of a failing educational/school system with standards that are ever lessening every year. I give my high school education 5/10, for instance, while collegial study has been about 7 - 8/10. Yet, collegial study relies on skills you were supposed to have gained from high school/middle school—many skills many schools fail to truly teach to their students. So in my experience, college has been wonderful; it's just the lack of pre-collegial skills which bug me—and that's probably because of a faulty public school system.
    But the research doesn't align with your personal experience. There isn't research to substantiate your opinion, in fact, all the research suggests that grammar instruction makes students write worse rather than better.
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  8. #18
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    I agree that it is a good thing not to care much about spelling and grammar. Only when actual ambiguities arise within context, does it start to matter. Even then not much.

    Correct grammar doesn't signify anything important, and is a common vehicle for pretension and bigotry. What's important is whether people understand the concepts behind language, rather than deciding whose language is the more 'correct' one. Flexible and adaptive grammar is far better for that (apparently increasing writing skills and reading comprehension, as well as aspects of conceptual thought).

  9. #19
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    But the research doesn't align with your personal experience. There isn't research to substantiate your opinion, in fact, all the research suggests that grammar instruction makes students write worse rather than better.
    So maybe these students had very good grammar instruction?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #20
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I agree that it is a good thing not to care much about spelling and grammar. Only when actual ambiguities arise within context, does it start to matter. Even then not much.

    Correct grammar doesn't signify anything important, and is a common vehicle for pretension and bigotry. What's important is whether people understand the concepts behind language, rather than deciding whose language is the more 'correct' one. Flexible and adaptive grammar is far better for that (apparently increasing writing skills and reading comprehension, as well as aspects of conceptual thought).
    Flexible and adaptable grammar is of huge value, especially in spoken communication with other people, but there's a point in writing at which "Well, you know what I mean" isn't good enough. By college, you should be able to write a couple of pages of standard written English without glaring flaws like your/you're, I/me, then/than, or run-ons, comma splices, etc. If not before.

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