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America, exams, multiple choice, European perceptions...

SilkRoad

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I am Canadian, but I work in England for an organisation which offers qualifications relating to speech and drama. They also have an international presence as they offer examinations around the world.

My opinionated boss - and others in the company, to be fair - have been heard to express the opinion that "America is the only country in the world that does not have an educational system based on examinations." The received wisdom seems to be that any and all tests at any level in America are based on multiple-choice. This is one rationale given for the fact that we haven't particularly succeeded in having a presence in the US. Apparently Americans just aren't interested in exam-based qualifications because they don't believe in exams.

I know that there is a majority of Americans on this board, so I thought I'd ask for your opinion if there is some truth in this. I would have thought that the Canadian and US educational systems were fairly similar - but actually I'm really not sure. My exams in Canada were sometimes multiple-choice, but especially at higher levels, it was usually a mixture of multiple-choce and free answers. It is also 15 years since I graduated from high school and more than 10 since I finished university.

As much as I love Europe, I think it is also worth noting that (sadly) the average European loathes Americans and think they're all uneducated, ignorant, and fundamentally annoying and dumb. So there are a lot of weird stereotypes about America and Americans going around. I find myself sometimes in the odd position of being a Canadian who ends up defending Americans against the vitriol that Europeans like to heap on them.

I would really like to know what you guys think about this, though I'd also really like something more nuanced and informative about the educational system in the US than "well of course all Europeans hate us" ;)
 

Patches

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What level of education are we talking about? Thanks to Bush, and his 'No Child Left Behind'... Highschool in America is entirely about examinations. I was a Secondary Education major for some time, meaning that I was shadowing teachers... I constantly heard things like, "Oh we have to skip that chapter because it's not on the exam", or "We have to teach it this way, because that's how it is on the test." Standardized exams are literally shaping the way things are taught, because teacher's feel as if they must "teach to the test". Granted - The exams at THIS level are mostly multiple choice.

As for college... Everything is exams. Most of my courses grades were determined almost solely by exams. And none of the exams in my field - Biology/Chem/Physic - EVER had multiple choice questions. Things are the same thus far in grad school. Most of my courses are 100% based on exams. There are a lot of standardized exams in college, too, dependent upon your major. There are entrance exams for most grad school programs and med school.

Where did you or your boss get the impression that our educational system is not exam based? Thats all it is.
 

Thalassa

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I don't understand. I made a perfect score on the AP Lit exam my senior year of high school and it was beaucoup writing.

My exams in college were rarely multiple choice, and even the ones that were also had written sections.

Does he mean "not exams based" like people in Western Europe go to college for free if they score right on exams, and we have to fucking pay for it?
 

Thalassa

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We take tests all the time, btw. Starting like in kindergarten.

What a bunch of shit.
 

SilkRoad

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Where did you or your boss get the impression that our educational system is not exam based? Thats all it is.

Not me. My boss, and others here. I thought "America is the only country is the world that does not have an educational system based on exams" was likely to be an exaggeration...at the very least.

Does he mean "not exams based" like people in Western Europe go to college for free if they score right on exams, and we have to fucking pay for it?

You might want to explain what you mean by that...?

I'm assuming that my boss's assessment is a knee-jerk anti-American thing (whether or not she realises it.) However, I'm hoping we can avoid knee-jerk reactions in this discussion. (faint hope)
 

SilkRoad

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Granted - The exams at THIS level are mostly multiple choice.

Maybe that's what this is about. I don't think Europeans do much multiple choice. But I still don't think that warrants the "Americans don't do exams" description.
 

Patches

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I think that's mostly because of the sheer amount of man-power it would take to grade EVERY SINGLE highschool student in the country's standardized exams, on top of the fact that the majority of students take the SAT, too. There is just no feasible way to manually grade every single exam. Multiple choice is the only way a machine can do it. But for the AP exams, or any exams administered by teachers.... They're rarely multiple choice. Or, as Marm already said - They are both multiple choice and written exams. (The SAT also has a written section).

Yeah... I'd say your boss just has a really skewed perception of what the American educational system is like. Exams are everything. And it got worse when G.W. Bush was in office, because he put in place a bill called "No Child Left Behind", which was basically about using standardized exams at every level of K-12 education to make sure students are where they should be academically. It's largely considered to be ineffective, and more of a hindrance than a help.
 

SilkRoad

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I think that's mostly because of the sheer amount of man-power it would take to grade EVERY SINGLE highschool student in the country's standardized exams, on top of the fact that the majority of students take the SAT, too. There is just no feasible way to manually grade every single exam. Multiple choice is the only way a machine can do it. But for the AP exams, or any exams administered by teachers.... They're rarely multiple choice. Or, as Marm already said - They are both multiple choice and written exams. (The SAT also has a written section).

Yeah... I'd say your boss just has a really skewed perception of what the American educational system is like. Exams are everything. And it got worse when G.W. Bush was in office, because he put in place a bill called "No Child Left Behind", which was basically about using standardized exams at every level of K-12 education to make sure students are where they should be academically. It's largely considered to be ineffective, and more of a hindrance than a help.

I agree with you about her assessment. It was way too general, for one thing. Your comment about manpower/grading all those exams is a good point, actually.

I think this is just her way of dealing with the fact that we've not really made inroads over there. ;)

Can you explain why this Bush initiative has been considered largely ineffective? I am curious about that.
 

Lucas

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Can you explain why this Bush initiative has been considered largely ineffective? I am curious about that.

Because functionally nothing has changed, except to put a larger load on teachers, and bend curricula around exams designed for the lowest common denominator.

One unfortunate fact for my school is that NCLB allows schools to do not meet adequate yearly progress (AYP) to transfer students to those that did. And sense in my district my school was the only one that did, we got about 200 new students last year, putting us at 1650 students in a building designed for 1500, and needing nine new teachers, which a lack of budget means we cannot get.

Basically, NCLB imposed extra demands, but completely failed to help schools meet those demands.
 

INTPness

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I do believe that multiple-choice exams have gotten way out of hand at the high-school and lower-level undergraduate college levels (i.e. first 2 years of college). To be honest, it was baffling how many multiple-choice exams I took during my first 2 years of college. I went to a community college and a lot of times I wouldn't even buy the book - I would just take notes from the lectures, look stuff up on my own if I wanted more information, and then get an A- on the exam. If I did have a book, I could (if I wanted) just memorize the "key words" and key concepts and ace the exam. It really can be ridiculous in some classes.

What you have to know is that it's largely dependent on the individual professor/teacher. The very best professors that I had were the ones who required you to answer open-ended questions and to do some critical thinking. I'm a firm believer that people don't learn much by memorizing key words and filling in bubbles. A monkey could do that. That's not learning. And I'm also a firm believer (call me cynical) that this is a large part of the reason that we have college graduates who really aren't very educated at all.

On the other hand, it's possible to have people who are educated and who have never stepped foot in a college classroom. College is not the only place where education, knowledge, and an open mind can be obtained.

It's also quite apparent that our education system does require some overhauling. We could perform much better in relation to other nations in this area. Something in the educational system is wrong and it needs to be fixed. I'll admit that. With all of this said, I turn to this:

As much as I love Europe, I think it is also worth noting that (sadly) the average European loathes Americans and think they're all uneducated, ignorant, and fundamentally annoying and dumb. So there are a lot of weird stereotypes about America and Americans going around. I find myself sometimes in the odd position of being a Canadian who ends up defending Americans against the vitriol that Europeans like to heap on them.

To have a viewpoint like this is, well, "uneducated, ignorant, and fundamentally annoying and dumb." People who make statements like that with a broad stroke of the brush are doing the very things that they think others are guilty of. First of all, not all Americans are uneducated, ignorant, and dumb. If this were the case, we wouldn't have corporations and innovators leading the way in their industries, etc, etc, ad finitum. Simply put, we wouldn't be where we are today if all of us were dumb. That's not to say we have it perfect here - I just discussed above one of the many areas where we need improvement. We just had a horrible violent act happen on the streets of Tucson, etc. There are things that need to be fixed here, no doubt. But, to say that we're all stupid is just STUPID!

Secondly, there are ignorant and uneducated people in every nation. To me, being educated is an outlook, an attitude, a curiosity to want to know what is going on. Again, just because 100% of people in a nation have been through college and had to answer "open ended" questions does not make those people smart or educated on a grand scale. They can still be ignorant. I've met people from many nations and people are people wherever you go. Some are educated, some aren't. Some are ignorant, some aren't.

Thirdly, tell your friends that education isn't the sole measure of a man. They are apprently measuring men by the education level they have attained. There are people in this world who are indeed ignorant and uneducated (even dumb) on a lot of issues, yet they still make big differences in their neighborhoods, maybe they adopt children and give them a decent upbringing, they make good friends, they help others, etc.

In summary, the measure of a man has nothing to do with whether he took multiple-choice or open-ended exams. Being uneducated, ignorarant, and dumb are also not a direct result of which type of exams you took. If you have a curiosity about you, you will become educated on your own and you won't remain ignorant or dumb. It's a personal choice. The multiple choice exams essentially "allow students to be lazy". It makes passing a college class and getting a degree fairly easy. You don't have to work super hard, you don't have to be super curious, you don't have to dig super deep. You can show up to class, give it a 50% effort, text on your cell phone while in class, skip class all the time, etc. We've allowed ourselves to be lazy in the classroom. But being educated, ignorant, or dumb is an individual thing. It's not an American thing, a European thing, or a Canadian thing.
 

Southern Kross

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Interesting topic. I have noticed America's education system is quite different to what I'm used to. Based on what I see in movies and TV (an unreliable source I know) it seems like SATs are the only exams high school students take, and instead they do a lot more of internal tests. I'm also confused by the fact that in the US if you want to study medicine or law you already have to have a degree (and it seems it doesn't matter what in) before you can begin.

But if we're splitting hairs, on the other hand doesn't England force 11 year olds to take middle-school entrance exams? That seems a bit harsh to me...

Another question: when you have written sections in exams are they generally short answers or are they more essay based (say, for the humanities)?
 

INTPness

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Interesting topic. I have noticed America's education system is quite different to what I'm used to. Based on what I see in movies and TV (an unreliable source I know) it seems like SATs are the only exams high school students take, and instead they do a lot more of internal tests. I'm also confused by the fact that in the US if you want to study medicine or law you already have to have a degree (and it seems it doesn't matter what in) before you can begin.

But if we're splitting hairs, on the other hand doesn't England force 11 year olds to take middle-school entrance exams? That seems a bit harsh to me...

Another question: when you have written sections in exams are they generally short answers or are they more essay based (say, for the humanities)?

Are you asking these questions to the Americans in the thread or to the OP? I have no idea where you live in the world, so I'm not sure what angle you are coming from. I couldn't tell from your post.
 

Athenian200

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I don't know how it is in other states, but in Texas, we had to take something called the TAKS at the end of every year for as long as I could remember in K-12. The majority of it was multiple choice, but there were some essay questions in English, I believe. Almost all the tests we took in class were multiple choice, though.

I don't think this represents a problem with the educational system. I don't think the majority of people are capable of critical thinking, so an educational system designed to teach information that way would be largely ineffective. From what I've heard, the lower levels of education were originally designed to prepare people for factory jobs, and you have to go to college if you actually wanted to learn anything beyond basic literacy and mathematics. They try to cram in as much useful and culturally relevant information into those years as possible.

We DO have exams and tests here, and quite a few, but they are usually graded by machines. In fact, I once took a test that required me to write an essay into a computer, and the computer graded it by analyzing grammar and checking for key word usage. This was at a community college, though.

From what I've heard, you can get a good education in the United States, but you have to go to an expensive college. It's not unheard of for very intelligent people to come out of, say, MIT.
 

Southern Kross

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Are you asking these questions to the Americans in the thread or to the OP? I have no idea where you live in the world, so I'm not sure what angle you are coming from. I couldn't tell from your post.
Sorry for the lack of clarity. I mean to ask the Americans :)

I'm from New Zealand, so I'm neither European or American (although I was taught in a system similar to the British one)
 

INTPness

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Sorry for the lack of clarity. I mean to ask the Americans :)

In that case,

Interesting topic. I have noticed America's education system is quite different to what I'm used to. Based on what I see in movies and TV (an unreliable source I know) it seems like SATs are the only exams high school students take, and instead they do a lot more of internal tests.

SAT's are like once in your life. The average high school or college student will have "internal tests" (as you call them) all the time. In a lower-level college course, there might be anywhere from 1 to 5 tests with perhaps a research paper and several other smaller assignments and maybe even a group project.

To give an example of how ridiculous some college courses can be here, the easiest classes I had in college might have had something like the following to make up the final grade you received:

a) 4 multiple choice exams (your worst score will be dropped and an average will be made of your highest 3).
It would always crack me up when the first test would come back and the highest grade in the class was something like 82 out of 100. Traditionally, that's about a B-, so in order to avoid giving 50% of students a failing grade, the professor would "curve" the results - often times adding 18 points to everyone's score so that the person with 82 ended up with 100 and the person with 55 out of 100 (fail), ended up with 73 (C-). This practice is very common and is absolutely laughable.

b) One presentation or research paper (anywhere from 5 to 10 pages). If you can do decent research and come up with something thoughtful and write fairly cohesively, you will get a big smiley face on your paper.

c) You might also have weekly assignments like: go home and read about company A and how they got started and write one page about why you think they were successful.

d) Maybe a group project

All these things will be averaged out to make up your final grade in the class.

Now the GOOD professors, on the other hand, would show up on day 1 and say, "I'm not like the rest of them. If you want to learn, then you're in the right place. If you want to show up every day half-asleep and expect to get a "B" in my class, you're probably in the wrong place. These professors often would give tests comprised of several open-ended questions (i.e. choose 2 world cultures and compare and contrast those cultures in regards to their current economic activity as it pertains to this class). These professors usually wouldn't let you "drop" your lowest test score. Every test counted and you had to perform well and you had to "actually learn" if you wanted a good grade.

I'm also confused by the fact that in the US if you want to study medicine or law you already have to have a degree (and it seems it doesn't matter what in) before you can begin.

Hmmm, I'm not sure how it works in other countries, but I'm not sure that I want an 18-year-old going right into medicine. Not that they couldn't handle the material if they were intelligent, but what about life experience? That's part of the theory behind the first 2 years of college here, which are made up of a broad spectrum of classes. You usually have to take some form of arts/humanities, a few social science classes, a math class, a physical education class, a hard science class, a government and/or history class, and other electives of your choice to round out the breadth of your education. Then and only then can you begin to get deeper into the subject you want to study. Someone serious about medicine would probably want to get their first degree in something like physiology, anatomy, etc. For law, perhaps government, economics, maybe even business. But, yeah, if you got your degree in fine art and then suddenly decided you wanted to go study medicine, you can certainly apply for med school, but it doesn't mean you will get accepted and you would definitely need to take preliminary coursework so that you were equally prepared with your fellow medical students. You wouldn't be ready to start studying medicine tomorrow. But, the idea and the assumption is that if you have an exceptional academic record - you are a superior student, that you should probably have the capability to do well in whatever subject you study. If you get into medical school and can't keep up, then it won't work for you. You won't make it and you won't become a doctor.

Another question: when you have written sections in exams are they generally short answers or are they more essay based (say, for the humanities)?

In high school, it would be short answers. In early college it could be both. The further on you go in college, the more open-ended the questions will become. Rather than "what is the answer to this question?" it will become "explain in detail what you know about x".
 

INTPness

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I always loved questions like, "How do you think Abraham Lincoln would have fared into today's world? Why?"

After the test was over, all the SJ's would say, "How can he ask a question like that when it wasn't even in the textbook? I don't remember reading about that and he didn't talk about it in his lectures."
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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America's obsession with standardized testing is pretty fascinating. I would venture a guess that part of the reason standardized testing has gained popularity in the last 10 years, especially in middle schools, has to do with our compulsive need to see everyone as being equal and having the same capacity and range of talents. It's like we're doing our best to forget about all the nuances and colors of personality and talent and reduce people to measurable scores in a very narrow category, as if to say "this is all that matters, this is all we're going to pay attention to, ignore everything else." It's bizarre.
 

INTPness

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America's obsession with standardized testing is pretty fascinating. I would venture a guess that part of the reason standardized testing has gained popularity in the last 10 years, especially in middle schools, has to do with our compulsive need to see everyone as being equal and having the same capacity and range of talents. It's like we're doing our best to forget about all the nuances and colors of personality and talent and reduce people to measurable scores in a very narrow category, as if to say "this is all that matters, this is all we're going to pay attention to, ignore everything else." It's bizarre.

Yeah, it's something like that. It's almost like education = McDonald's. Just pump out a bunch of burgers that all look and taste the same and it will be good. Yeah, that method might be efficient, but what if I want a REALLY good burger or a specialty burger or mushrooms or whatever. What we end up with is a bunch of college graduates who have no clue how to perform in their first job.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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Yeah, it's something like that. It's almost like education = McDonald's. Just pump out a bunch of burgers that all look and taste the same and it will be good. Yeah, that method might be efficient, but what if I want a REALLY good burger or a specialty burger or mushrooms or whatever. What we end up with is a bunch of college graduates who have no clue how to perform in their first job.

Not to mention failing to nurture people's innate talents and interests because teachers are forbidden to stray from curriculum. It's a shame that we let stupid people design and implement our education system.
 

INTPness

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Not to mention failing to nurture people's innate talents and interests because teachers are forbidden to stray from curriculum. It's a shame that we let stupid people design and implement our education system.

No, we can't allow individuality to seep its way into our education system. *gasp*
 
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