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  1. #31
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post

    2. From someone who doesn't know you, you seem to place A LOT of value on finishing school. And that's OK, don't get me wrong. I have finished school (and I may end up with a Ph.D. at some point, and then again I may not), but the degree(s) that are in my closet do not define my value in this life. I'm not sure if you agree with me or not, but it's worth stating. You said, "I wouldn't recommend not finishing school". Why not? Why should everyone go to school (college)? It's not for everyone. Some people don't have the skill set for it (they are better at other things), some people don't enjoy it, and some people flat-out don't want anything to do with it. They don't have to finish school to be considered valuable people who can make a difference in the world.
    Mhm, I want to come back to this discussion at more detail later but it's super late here and I need to go to bed

    I just want to make clear that when I talk about "finishing school", I mean high school. I do realise that not everyone is going to do college or uni (for various reasons, ranging from financial reasons to their own aptitudes and interests), and actually I'm quite fine with that. But I think that finishing high school should be a minimum for everyone if remotely possible. I think having at least that level of education is important for being a well rounded person, and you're just going to be crippling yourself unnecessarily in terms of job prospects if you don't have a high school diploma at least, certainly in this day and age. I wasn't sure what level of education you were referring to, or thought I was referring to, when you mentioned my emphasis on education...
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  2. #32
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Mhm, I want to come back to this discussion at more detail later but it's super late here and I need to go to bed

    I just want to make clear that when I talk about "finishing school", I mean high school. I do realise that not everyone is going to do college or uni (for various reasons, ranging from financial reasons to their own aptitudes and interests), and actually I'm quite fine with that. But I think that finishing high school should be a minimum for everyone if remotely possible. I think having at least that level of education is important for being a well rounded person, and you're just going to be crippling yourself unnecessarily in terms of job prospects if you don't have a high school diploma at least, certainly in this day and age. I wasn't sure what level of education you were referring to, or thought I was referring to, when you mentioned my emphasis on education...
    Yeah, I guess I assumed (or misinterpreted) that you were talking about college. Which led me on my long-winded, INTP tangent that probably made your eyes bleed while reading it. Sorry 'bout that.

    And, yeah, I do believe a basic high-school education is pretty necessary in today's world. There will still be those rare exceptions where someone had to drop out in the 8th grade to help their family on the farm or to get a full-time job at age 16 to help mama pay the mortgage, but in those cases, the person could always go back later and get the high-school diploma equivalency (here in the states, referred to as a G.E.D. - General Education Diploma).
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  3. #33
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I can't view the graph for some reason. Maybe you can repost it?
    I can give you the link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi..._Evolution.svg

    what I personally believe: in the US there's a large rural (and ghetto-urban too, probably) share of population that lives "disconnected" from every other part of society and culture, thus their belief and knowledge will be comparatively extremely "ignorant".
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  4. #34
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I can give you the link:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vi..._Evolution.svg

    what I personally believe: in the US there's a large rural (and ghetto-urban too, probably) share of population that lives "disconnected" from every other part of society and culture, thus their belief and knowledge will be comparatively extremely "ignorant".
    Oh, good Lord. That's a whole different debate in that graph. A very complex debate - evolution vs. old world creationism vs. new world creationism, etc, etc, ad finitum (90 page thread, etc.).

    Anyhow, yeah, I've met some really closed-minded people wherever I've gone in the world - literally in every country I've gone to, I've met a few of them. And I've also met open-minded people everywhere I've gone. It's a huge mistake to think that in one country you have a bunch of ignoramus' and as soon as you cross the Atlantic (or the Pacific or some other border) that all the sudden you're in great, intelligent company. I've traveled way too much. It's just not true.
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  5. #35
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I can't believe had machines mark all your high school tests/exams! I only had that for these advanced exams that you could take if you wanted in.

    Our external exams were sent off and marked by someone by hand by someone who was paid specially to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Now the GOOD professors, on the other hand, would show up on day 1 and say, "I'm not like the rest of them. If you want to learn, then you're in the right place. If you want to show up every day half-asleep and expect to get a "B" in my class, you're probably in the wrong place. These professors often would give tests comprised of several open-ended questions (i.e. choose 2 world cultures and compare and contrast those cultures in regards to their current economic activity as it pertains to this class). These professors usually wouldn't let you "drop" your lowest test score. Every test counted and you had to perform well and you had to "actually learn" if you wanted a good grade.
    The situation is closer to what university was like for me.

    Hmmm, I'm not sure how it works in other countries, but I'm not sure that I want an 18-year-old going right into medicine. Not that they couldn't handle the material if they were intelligent, but what about life experience? That's part of the theory behind the first 2 years of college here, which are made up of a broad spectrum of classes. You usually have to take some form of arts/humanities, a few social science classes, a math class, a physical education class, a hard science class, a government and/or history class, and other electives of your choice to round out the breadth of your education. Then and only then can you begin to get deeper into the subject you want to study. Someone serious about medicine would probably want to get their first degree in something like physiology, anatomy, etc. For law, perhaps government, economics, maybe even business. But, yeah, if you got your degree in fine art and then suddenly decided you wanted to go study medicine, you can certainly apply for med school, but it doesn't mean you will get accepted and you would definitely need to take preliminary coursework so that you were equally prepared with your fellow medical students. You wouldn't be ready to start studying medicine tomorrow. But, the idea and the assumption is that if you have an exceptional academic record - you are a superior student, that you should probably have the capability to do well in whatever subject you study. If you get into medical school and can't keep up, then it won't work for you. You won't make it and you won't become a doctor.
    Fair points. Its interesting though. It seems like America thinks of undergraduate degrees as an extension of high school...

    As far as I know (from what I vaguely remember when talking with med student friends) in NZ usually med students take a year of biology courses and then if they do well enough the can apply to start medicine. They have psych tests and interviews, as well as an assessment of your marks (A+ to A average is absolutely necessary) and a select few make it through. After that you do 3 years of theory plus lab training (and maybe some volunteering at a hospital? I'm not sure), with more and more eliminated each year I believe - this gives you a BSc with medicine as a major. Then you do post-grad studies with increasingly more practical work and more specific areas of focus as things progress.

    With law, you can start it right away but you only take a few classes in it for the first few years so you had to do a conjoint degree (most did a BA) to make up the points.

    In high school, it would be short answers. In early college it could be both. The further on you go in college, the more open-ended the questions will become. Rather than "what is the answer to this question?" it will become "explain in detail what you know about x".
    Really. I did short answers and essays in exams at high school from year 9 (8th grade) for English and Social Studies subjects (and in a way for languages if you took them). And I think all my exams at university except one (a first year course which was multiple choice) were essay based - but then I did do a BA.

    I remember the Year 13 (12th grade) English exam being epic in difficulty and size. It had 2 short answer sections on a poetry and a prose excerpts of 10 questions each, a essay question on static images/speeches/whatever (which you could prepare earlier), then 3 or 4 essays on books/plays/poets/movies you studied - all of which had to be done in 3 hours

    They don't do it this way now. We have a really convoluted system that: no one understands, puts huge pressure on teachers, discourages trying and basically attempts to eliminate the word 'fail'.
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  6. #36
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    I didnt know what you said about multiple choice tests. Well I think the majority of germans wouldnt know that aswell, yet the majority would say americans are dumb yes. Then again, germans are the masters of criticizing everything and everyone so I wouldnt take that too personal. A huge point of critique is probably americas obsessions with religion that's a thing which is not understood amongst my people. Germany is a very hands-down practical and rational society and this creates a problem.

    At first glance an american and a german would get along pretty well, I have harder times to get along with the french or even with someone from England. But on second glance germans and americans are fundamentally different. For example in America it's considered polite to talk alot and impolite to not to. In germany this exactly the opposite. In Germany aswell the general belief is there is no God. Tho there are religious people even those are convinced there is no God. And it's only a select few, who would in silence and for themselves believe in a God. In Germany fantasy is generally not a thing you get very far with in society. Tho this is changing at the moment. Germany too is a very foreign people unfriendly country. There are still more people running from the country than coming to it and America would be the exact opposite. You can quite quickly integrate in the american culture at many places and it's a good thing for a globalized future.

    The thing about education, well you can see it this or that way. In Germany you go to University and only write exams up until age 26 - 30 yrs, depending on the difficulty of subject. After that you again learn everything anew in a company. So University is basically most often a huge waste of time. Then agaqin you learn a lot there so this could come in handy one day, it's complicated it depends on how quickly you want your workfroce educated. I doubt tho that someone only writing exams and having a longer time at University is automatically better qualified than someone who did not. On the paper tho it appears as such.

    Well then there is the example of americans not even knowing the major capitals of Europe. The first time I heard that I thought "and ? I dont know the major capitals of the US states aswell". This is really no base of reference for me.

    It's hard to tell for me, sometimes when you discuss things on the boards I am like "wtf thgis the most natural thing in the world, why do they have to discuss it ?" This so a difference in education not really experience achieved from learning. I personally do not consider myself smarter than the americans on this board, I feel no need for that. And people who do feel a need for that, so lets say europeans, I think they should get that pole out of their asses. It's a pretty arrogant thing and a thing most often done by older generations in my country. They appear sometimes to somehow have given up on learning from other cultures and to think the best way will always be theirs and noone else.

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  7. #37
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Here in Medicine school all exams are multiple choice, they work very good, and there's verbal part of the exam if you passed written. in HS there's never multiple choice test. and prejudice about non educated Americans probably come from type of HSs in US and Europe, here we have specialized HSs so good students all go to top and mostly, after primary school (14) never ever again meet "dumb" students, in gymnasium we learn things like Latin as obligatory, so when someone says Americans are stupid in comparisson to Europeans, they dont count in people in Europe who go to lower rank schools, where there is no so "liberal arts" education. Those 2 worlds (gymnasium and lower HSs) are so separate that social circles almost never mix and when you go to college 90% of people are from gymnasium so you get the wrong feeling this is good representative of whole population.

  8. #38
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petra Pan View Post
    Here in Medicine school all exams are multiple choice, they work very good, and there's verbal part of the exam if you passed written. in HS there's never multiple choice test. and prejudice about non educated Americans probably come from type of HSs in US and Europe, here we have specialized HSs so good students all go to top and mostly, after primary school (14) never ever again meet "dumb" students, in gymnasium we learn things like Latin as obligatory, so when someone says Americans are stupid in comparisson to Europeans, they dont count in people in Europe who go to lower rank schools, where there is no so "liberal arts" education. Those 2 worlds (gymnasium and lower HSs) are so separate that social circles almost never mix and when you go to college 90% of people are from gymnasium so you get the wrong feeling this is good representative of whole population.
    What country are you from?
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  9. #39
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I don't know about you but in HS we had tests in all classes pretty much every other week except gym, in some classes very regularly every week. However, there were only 2 standardized tests that HS students were required to take, and those weren't even counted towards your grade. Most people took the ACT, some took the SAT, and many people took AP exams, some 5 or 6 a year.

    I was surprised when I got into college that the testing really seemed to die down a lot. In my college calc class, there were only 3 exams before the final, and in my Korean class a measley 2! My philosophy of comics class this semester (don't ask) doesn't even have exams at all, but instead a paper that's worth something like 80% of my grade due at the end of it. I think if you get into the softer humanities much of the grading is like this, not based on tests, but otherwise? No way.
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  10. #40
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    That was not my HS experience (I'm in the US). Only some tests were multiple choice (and never machine graded), ones which involved detailed facts (ie. History and Science), but we'd also often have an essay portion where we'd discuss the non factual aspects like significance or relating something to something else and/or to explain our understanding of something in detail. I don't see the problem with that..... As someone who does not memorize facts well but grasps concepts easily, this made more sense to me . Pulling exact dates off the top of my head is rough, but writing an essay is not, so it was great to have multiple choice for the dry, factual aspects. I don't think this has affected my education negatively, rather it accommodated my learning style better.

    Even our standardized, state tests (given to gauge where a school & students are at in comparison to others) usually had written portions in addition to any multiple choice. Those tests has nothing to do with our grades either.

    In college, I cannot recall one multiple choice exam....we had a lot more projects and papers than exams, and exams were heavy on essays also.
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