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  1. #21
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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  2. #22
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  3. #23
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Thanks for the thoughtful responses, especially from INTPness.

    I think it's fairly obvious that my boss's assessment is too general and rather condescending. That doesn't surprise me much. It probably does have something to do with a heavy reliance on multiple choice. I think multiple choice has its place, but I also agree that it can allow students to be very lazy.

    I do want to make it very clear that I hate the anti-AMerican attitude I have encountered so often in Europe. It really makes the people who mouth it look ignorant, ironically. I haven't actually known a lot of Americans, but those I've known personally I've liked. One of my best friends in the UK is American, but she's a rather anti-American American...but that's another story.

    I'm not sure though that people who say "Americans are all dumb and ignorant" and ridiculous comments like that are just talking about the level of education, ie. having a degree or whatever. I certainly have a wide variety of friends from a wide variety of cultures and all the way from not having finished school to having PhDs. I think having a good education is a good thing if you have the opportunity, but it's more about your attitude to life and learning. One of my good friends (raised in England from an immigrant background) didn't finish school, but he is one of the most informed, curious and intelligent people I know. (He is almost fifteen years older than me, so of a slightly different generation, when admittedly it was easier to make a go of it in financial/work terms without having finished school. I certainly don't recommend not finishing school!) I have discussions with him about books that almost no one else I know has read. I admire what he's achieved in terms of personal development much more than I admire my own - because he's pretty much self-made. I come from a middle-class background, my parents always encouraged me to love books and reading, they paid for a lot of my English degree in university, etc. He had none of those advantages.

    Slight digression, sorry. I think that a lot of Europeans are so anti-American, whether they realise it or not, because of America's politics and foreign policy, especially in recent years. But it's ridiculous to tar everyone with the stupid brush just because you don't like their president or their politics.

    However, I have noted that a lot of Americans do seem to have huge gaps in their knowledge when it comes to knowledge of the outside world and of geography. THat hasn't helped with the perceptions. Everyone has stories of getting comments from Americans like "You used to live in Ireland? Is that an island with water all the way around it? Do people speak ENglish there?" and "oh, I thought Canada was just that bit above New York. Does it go all the way across?" Both of those are true stories, by the way. (The comment about Canada came from an American I met who was spending time in France, so it wasn't even that she hadn't travelled at all or something like that.) And I have just heard too many stories like that, or actually been on the receiving end of such questions and comments, for me to think that it's just a small handful of somewhat ignorant Americans who don't even have a rudimentary grasp of geography etc. I think for me that's the most notable lack in American education that I've come across. It does seem as though Americans don't get taught a lot about the outside world.
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  4. #24
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    To have a viewpoint like this is, well, "uneducated, ignorant, and fundamentally annoying and dumb." People who make statements like that with a broad stroke of the brush are doing the very things that they think others are guilty of. First of all, not all Americans are uneducated, ignorant, and dumb. If this were the case, we wouldn't have corporations and innovators leading the way in their industries, etc, etc, ad finitum. Simply put, we wouldn't be where we are today if all of us were dumb. That's not to say we have it perfect here - I just discussed above one of the many areas where we need improvement. We just had a horrible violent act happen on the streets of Tucson, etc. There are things that need to be fixed here, no doubt. But, to say that we're all stupid is just STUPID!
    I believe that when europeans (me included) refer to americans in such a lowly fashion don't really consider people that are curious, logically minded, somewhat interested in the world, etc.; we mostly look at graphs such as these:

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I always loved questions like, "How do you think Abraham Lincoln would have fared into today's world? Why?"

    After the test was over, all the SJ's would say, "How can he ask a question like that when it wasn't even in the textbook? I don't remember reading about that and he didn't talk about it in his lectures."
    hahahahaha, on a side note, from the intuitive perspective, I had an XNTP professor ask "Lucy's brain was 900 CC, true or false?". Seriously, we are supposed to remember that from one sentence out of a 200-300 page nonfiction book (it wasn't a textbook)? He was great because he asked really random questions on tests about something highly specific just because he thought it was fascinating not necessarily because it was relevant.


    On another note, there are ways to make MC really difficult where you have to use a little critical thinking: make the choices seem really similar, use the "only A and B/all of the above/none of the above" option, make up an example to illustrate a concept and only those who really know it will get the answer, be highly detailed.

    In some ways, essay tests are much easier.... you can creatively bullshit your way through. If you are good at making connections, it is usually a piece of cake. The written portion usually always saved my butt. But then again. it seems like there are still many of my peers and such who struggle with this.

  6. #26
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Thanks for the thoughtful responses, especially from INTPness.

    I think it's fairly obvious that my boss's assessment is too general and rather condescending. That doesn't surprise me much. It probably does have something to do with a heavy reliance on multiple choice. I think multiple choice has its place, but I also agree that it can allow students to be very lazy.

    I do want to make it very clear that I hate the anti-AMerican attitude I have encountered so often in Europe. It really makes the people who mouth it look ignorant, ironically. I haven't actually known a lot of Americans, but those I've known personally I've liked. One of my best friends in the UK is American, but she's a rather anti-American American...but that's another story.

    I'm not sure though that people who say "Americans are all dumb and ignorant" and ridiculous comments like that are just talking about the level of education, ie. having a degree or whatever. I certainly have a wide variety of friends from a wide variety of cultures and all the way from not having finished school to having PhDs. I think having a good education is a good thing if you have the opportunity, but it's more about your attitude to life and learning. One of my good friends (raised in England from an immigrant background) didn't finish school, but he is one of the most informed, curious and intelligent people I know. (He is almost fifteen years older than me, so of a slightly different generation, when admittedly it was easier to make a go of it in financial/work terms without having finished school. I certainly don't recommend not finishing school!) I have discussions with him about books that almost no one else I know has read. I admire what he's achieved in terms of personal development much more than I admire my own - because he's pretty much self-made. I come from a middle-class background, my parents always encouraged me to love books and reading, they paid for a lot of my English degree in university, etc. He had none of those advantages.

    Slight digression, sorry. I think that a lot of Europeans are so anti-American, whether they realise it or not, because of America's politics and foreign policy, especially in recent years. But it's ridiculous to tar everyone with the stupid brush just because you don't like their president or their politics.

    However, I have noted that a lot of Americans do seem to have huge gaps in their knowledge when it comes to knowledge of the outside world and of geography. THat hasn't helped with the perceptions. Everyone has stories of getting comments from Americans like "You used to live in Ireland? Is that an island with water all the way around it? Do people speak ENglish there?" and "oh, I thought Canada was just that bit above New York. Does it go all the way across?" Both of those are true stories, by the way. (The comment about Canada came from an American I met who was spending time in France, so it wasn't even that she hadn't travelled at all or something like that.) And I have just heard too many stories like that, or actually been on the receiving end of such questions and comments, for me to think that it's just a small handful of somewhat ignorant Americans who don't even have a rudimentary grasp of geography etc. I think for me that's the most notable lack in American education that I've come across. It does seem as though Americans don't get taught a lot about the outside world.
    That's a good response. Just a few things that stand out to me:

    1. Your friend whom you admire - who did not get finish school, but who is still very curious and knowledgeable - keep in mind that there are people just like him here in the U.S. I have friends like him too. Right here in the U.S. There seems to be this idea (not you, but with many non-Americans) that curious, intellectual people don't exist in the U.S. And also that dumb, ignorant people don't exist in their own country. I don't believe it.

    2. From someone who doesn't know you, you seem to place A LOT of value on finishing school. And that's OK, don't get me wrong. I have finished school (and I may end up with a Ph.D. at some point, and then again I may not), but the degree(s) that are in my closet do not define my value in this life. I'm not sure if you agree with me or not, but it's worth stating. You said, "I wouldn't recommend not finishing school". Why not? Why should everyone go to school (college)? It's not for everyone. Some people don't have the skill set for it (they are better at other things), some people don't enjoy it, and some people flat-out don't want anything to do with it. They don't have to finish school to be considered valuable people who can make a difference in the world.

    I know several self-made people who have not finished school. Some are creative and curious and have business instincts. One of them (very open-minded person, BTW) basically said, "Forget school. If some people want to go to school, then good for them. I don't knock them for it. Go for it! But, I don't need school to tell me how to succeed in life. I knew that I would be quite successful without ever having set foot in a classroom. My happiness in life and my success and where I go in life has absolutely nothing to do with whether I've been to college or not." This person is educated on her own terms. She isn't lacking knowledge, but she bucks the "formality" of institutional education. I know another person (ESTJ) who is VERY successful and absolutely hated the idea of going to college. He wouldn't have gone to college in a million years. I know many mothers who are not educated, but who do great things in their community. So, yes, education is *one* of many important things in life, but it is not the end-all be-all.

    For instance, I'm beginning to invent things - to take ideas, develop them, research the market for relevancy, basically get the product ready - right up to the point of manufacturing (that's where I stop) - and then license the product to a manufacturer. Inventing, product development, whatever. It's a little of both. Why do I need to sit in a college class for that? I can tell you one thing - if someone is teaching a college class on inventing (unless he's doing it strictly out of love for teaching or to "give back" and he's actually been an real-life inventor), I'll probably be better at inventing than he is. I don't want to learn from him. I'll figure it out myself. In this line of work, you have to do a TON of learning or else you're going to waste invaluable time and money on something that won't even work.

    So, I'm not smashing education itself - but I am saying that sitting in a college classroom doesn't do much for me as it pertains to my personal goals at this point. College isn't everything and it's important to me that people realize that. Society has shoved down our throats the idea that if you haven't graduated college, you aren't much. But, once you graduate, you're "in"! Now you are somebody! I don't buy it. Every person has equal value - and that value is inherent. Some people don't "use" their value like they should, but they still have it. You can be whatever you want to be in life - sometimes that path will require a college education, other times it won't. When our lives are over, it's not really going to be about "whether or not we finished school".
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #27
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I believe that when europeans (me included) refer to americans in such a lowly fashion don't really consider people that are curious, logically minded, somewhat interested in the world, etc.; we mostly look at graphs such as these:

    I can't view the graph for some reason. Maybe you can repost it?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #28
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I believe that when europeans (me included) refer to americans in such a lowly fashion don't really consider people that are curious, logically minded, somewhat interested in the world, etc.; we mostly look at graphs such as these:
    I would have to agree with that. I don't think that Europeans who say that Americans are ignorant mean that ALL Americans are ignorant... they're talking about the people they've encountered or statistical data. Even I would agree that there seems to be an unfortunate trend of Americans being less educated and curious people. In fact, I had to learn everything I know by looking it up on my own... had I relied on society and a typical education, I would likely be as uninformed as everyone else.

    The statement Americans make about Europeans is that they're impractical snobs, or something like that, and they don't usually claim it applies to all of them as individuals.

    When people make sweeping statements, or express contempt for something, they very rarely believe that their generalization applies to ALL of something (unless they're extremists of some sort). Most people will qualify when asked and say, "Well, I think it's true of the majority of them, but I guess there are probably some good ones out there... there always are, but it doesn't change the general trend."

  9. #29
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The statement Americans make about Europeans is that they're impractical snobs, or something like that, and they don't usually claim it applies to all of them as individuals.
    Nice post. You make a lot of good points.

    To be fair, I don't understand that line of thinking in the above quote either (Americans making sweeping statements of Europeans). I've heard Americans say it. I have extensive travels through Europe and I have never had such a thought. I've never adopted anything even resembling that into my line of thinking. I think it would be very short-sighted to make a statement like that - a "sweeping statement" as you say. Even if I didn't mean it about ALL, but I was just talking about MOST of them. I don't know, maybe it's an INTP thing to try and avoid slipping into a faulty mindset. On the other hand, I guess I've laughed at comedians who have made jokes about "snobby Europeans", so maybe I do see some form of snobbery in them in my unconcious thoughts, or maybe the comedians were just really funny, who knows. I don't know. I just see people as people. I don't think, "oh, he's European, wonderful, another one of those people." Instead, I just think, "OK, here's a person. Let me find out what he is all about as an individual." When I meet someone, it's with a completely clean slate. I try not to bring assumptions to the table of what they might be like. Now, if someone says "I just got out of prison yesterday for murder", then I'm going to proceed with caution because new information has been introduced. But, I'm still going to give them the time of day and not write them off as stupid or dumb. Maybe they've changed. Maybe they're different. Who knows what I will find out about them - probably some things good and other things not - like anybody else we come across in life.

    I remember going to Turkey of all places. I had no idea what to expect. I came across a family who welcomed me into their store, befriended me, asked a ton of questions about my culture and the U.S. and my thoughts on Turkey, etc. The father wanted his daughter to stay in touch with me. We became pen pals for a time. After 30 minutes in their store, when I had to leave, they were practically begging my friend and I to stay - they wanted to know more, they wanted to experience more of us - and we liked them as well. Then there was a shop owner who was completely rude and made derogatory comments in broken English. Completely ignorant, biased, uninformed, and totally uninterested in getting to know me and my friend as the individuals that we are. That's what I call dumb. Dumb squared. Dumb to the 10th power. Just dumb. We were already judged and his mind was already made up before we even stepped foot in the store. Ridiculous. I could provide multiple examples on both sides of the coin in my travels. People are people, no matter where you go.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  10. #30
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Pros of Essay question: develops critical thought and out of the box reasoning
    Cons of Essay question: subject to interpretation of grader, time consuming to review


    Perhaps da Yanks value productivity and objectivity over more time consuming enhanced development?

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