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  1. #11
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Thanks. And that's true too. But that's when you break out and become an entrepreneur. Just make sure you've got a solid network to source clients from.

    But you do see people mired deeply in the corporate world, unable to break out of what I call the "grey zone". If you're someone with a set of ethics that calls for black and white, that grey zone will eat away at you.
    What exactly do you mean- right/wrong vs manipulating and embellishing or purposely omitting information for gain? This is what it sounds like. If not, you got an example?

  2. #12
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    What exactly do you mean- right/wrong vs manipulating and embellishing or purposely omitting information for gain? This is what it sounds like. If not, you got an example?
    Leveraging off loopholes, manipulation/embellishment, draconian business measures, etc.

  3. #13
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Leveraging off loopholes, manipulation/embellishment, draconian business measures, etc.
    Just wanted to be sure. I just hate it when people do these things they try to pull in another person or other people. If you are going to put some imaginary numbers in there, or tell a bold faced lie. I don't want to know. I especially don't want my instructions to be to lie to someone else. It hasn't happened, but I know people who have been part of it. It ate them up.

  4. #14
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IZthe411 View Post
    Just wanted to be sure. I just hate it when people do these things they try to pull in another person or other people. If you are going to put some imaginary numbers in there, or tell a bold faced lie. I don't want to know. I especially don't want my instructions to be to lie to someone else. It hasn't happened, but I know people who have been part of it. It ate them up.
    But none of what I've stated is illegal. That's why it's the grey zone.

    Take statistics. You can make many views using the same source data. So, the name of the game is to give the most optimistic or flattering view that aligns with your agenda. It's all truth and fact. But the view is deceptive.

  5. #15
    From the Undertow CuriousFeeling's Avatar
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    Definitely not an area I'd be too happy in. I find corporate business systems dynamics interesting to study, but I wouldn't want to be the guy up there pulling the levers, especially if a decision will negatively impact others working for the company... no matter how rich it would make me, or making profits for the company at the expense of providing jobs for honest to good workers.
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  6. #16
    Carerra Lu IZthe411's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    But none of what I've stated is illegal. That's why it's the grey zone.

    Take statistics. You can make many views using the same source data. So, the name of the game is to give the most optimistic or flattering view that aligns with your agenda. It's all truth and fact. But the view is deceptive.
    I got you. It can feels illegal, though. Just like what they do when they want to find reason to get rid of somebody.

  7. #17
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Today I was speaking with my ENTP best friend who works with me. (emo warning)

    We both are shattered and broken. We are bent and twisted and feel incompetent. At our company all the right things to do are wrong and the wrong things are done to keep everyone happy. Except they are not really happy but instead afraid-thus hide things as to not become the focal point of terror. But since everyone keeps smiling...well it must be just me right? Until we get together in small groups and talk-yet even though we know it isnt us...it still feels like it is us as individuals. Heheheh, for once it is an issue that transcends type-as everyone is like this, but just shows it in different ways. We see people come in from the outside-and they seem so normal. It takes about three months before they get the message to just shut up and play along-as if you point out problems it means you are the problem.

    We dont do illegal things really-but very much grey things. Many many gray things. Every gray thing I do shatters a bit more off of my internal idea of right and wrong-eventually I talk to fewer and fewer people as if I dont talk to them, they cant ask me to shortcut things and leave me with that feeling of cheating my customers.... But most people are so fucked up that we dont feel comfortable looking for other jobs as we are not qualified-I have seen people like us come in and interview. Their eyes are nervous and they are afraid we will see through them and see how fucked up they feel about themselves. How do companies get this way I wonder....today I laughed with an ISTJ friend-he said we are so accustomed to working in crisis mode, that it is only when a massive crisis occurs, that we actually feel stressed anymore...otherwise it is a sense of numbness. They bring in consultants and new execs and they all have offsite meetings-but since they cant see underneath the belly...they really dont see where the issues are. We have worked so hard and fought so many times to pull off the impossible...to earn the labels of troublemakers and watch the hardest working of our collegues get fired for standing up and being honest about our workplace. So I dunno...I'd like to think other places are better than this-more REAL even if more brutal.

  8. #18
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    Interesting article I came across, with additional discussion in the comments http://www.pakg1.net/2010/11/what-av...nderstand.html
    This person doesn't know what they are talking about. It's an immature perspective. Ignore all of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    All I'm going to say is that it's one part smarts, one part luck, one part social savvy, one part opportunism and the last part, how far you'll go. The nepotism or socio-economic standing portion can matter but isn't always the case. But it does help to know and impress the right people, not necessarily with your brilliance, although you have to be smart and skilled enough but with your reliability and corporate gung-ho focus aka good attitude.
    I very much agree with all of these things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    It can be a daily adrenaline rush, an addiction. It can eat you alive. It can be fulfilling. There's nothing like it. There's nothing you also can love to hate as much or live to love. It's a game of power. Some thrive and others wilt.

    It's so easy to get ahead. It's not so easy to stay on top. And when you're on top, it had better be what you really valued and who you are.

    What I have noticed for people who want to get there, is that the ones who enjoy remaining on top tend to view it in an almost casual approach of it being a game. It's never personal. Once you start to take it personally, you won't last.
    Here is where I might differ a bit. It's not easy to get ahead. It is hard to stay on top. I would agree that there are certain people who enjoy the game more than others and that certainly has to make it easier for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Thanks. And that's true too. But that's when you break out and become an entrepreneur. Just make sure you've got a solid network to source clients from.

    But you do see people mired deeply in the corporate world, unable to break out of what I call the "grey zone". If you're someone with a set of ethics that calls for black and white, that grey zone will eat away at you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Metaphor View Post
    Leveraging off loopholes, manipulation/embellishment, draconian business measures, etc.
    Ah well, I think that is a bit cynical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    We have worked so hard and fought so many times to pull off the impossible...to earn the labels of troublemakers and watch the hardest working of our collegues get fired for standing up and being honest about our workplace. So I dunno...I'd like to think other places are better than this-more REAL even if more brutal.
    Here is the thing. We're coming out of a very severe recession. Productivity has never been higher but many people are still out of work. For the people who have jobs - many are feeling stressed and burned out because they have been working harder, worried about their their jobs, work is not as much fun anymore, etc. etc. etc. These things always happen after recessions. This time it's worse because it has dragged on longer. Some of the best people leave their jobs for the greener grass after a recession. I've done so myself. Many times the grass is greener. Other times it's not. For those who lost their jobs - many are stil out of work. They might be in construction or retail or some other plagued sector. For them, things suck far more. For those of us who are gainfully employed, we should be thankful.

    It's a "marketplace" and that's not always a kind place. That's capitalism. Also, for any organization which really is highly inefficient or ineffective, it ultimately does show up in results and affects people; i.e. no profit and people working for the organization lose in one way or another - unless you work for the government or a monopoly. Of course these things can take a while.
    Last edited by highlander; 01-09-2011 at 02:30 PM.

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  9. #19
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    The article just goes to show that I would not be cut out for a big corporation job. Which is fine with me because I know I wouldn't be happy in such a cutthroat environment.
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  10. #20
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Here is where I might differ a bit. It's not easy to get ahead.
    It is easy to get ahead if you're willing to take risks, such as moving to another department or firm when your current one dead ends. In order to have the opportunity to do so, you have to get your branding out which means a lot of networking in your industry.
    Ah well, I think that is a bit cynical.
    Might be industry related. I actually glossed over the worst of it.

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