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  1. #21
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Didn't read the whole thing, but I would say the difference is that with a tough male boss, most people interpret that straight out.

    With a tough female boss, I think there are many more connotations that come with it........does tough lead into bitchy, emotional, etc.

  2. #22
    Yeah, I can fly. Aleksei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Thoughts?
    tl;dr
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  3. #23
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I think because even the most open minded men don't notice the behaviour, because they are climatised to it. I'm pretty sure my manager would actually be shocked and saddened if he knew I felt this way. Although, IMHO, it is women themselves, that reinforce this behaviour (I'm not saying you guys). I mean I'm sure you guys have experienced some women handing your change to a male friend, partner or what ever even though you paid (this sets my teeth on edge), and it's not just older women who do this, or the bitchy tear downs at work. In one place I worked I was the most qualified person there, as well as being extremely capable and confident. It was quite obvious from the start I had a bit more respect from the "male" boss, but I was single and young. They nit picked, and harrased me until I was a nervous wreck. Reported every word I said to the boss, until he obtained quite a twisted perception of me. I was there for four months. Have you guys ever noticed how many females, mainly baby boomers, instantly get thier heckles up, because you are younger, (and for me I believe the single thing is a factor), so with out opening your mouth, you are instantly on the outer, and they will constantly undermine you, and make passive agressive attacks on your authority. My sexuality often gets bandied about, or I'm having affairs with male colleuges (I have an awful lot of sex I don't know about.)
    At one job, a good male friend found out we were supposed to have had a passionate affair, after I left. He used to joke "he should have made it more fun for me, except neither had known about it. Although according to that place he was a man whore.
    Some groups of women, make it so much harder for other individual women out there.
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  4. #24
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Why should women be any more immune from institutionalised sexism than men are? If you grow up in a society that considers women to be the "second sex" it takes an incredible strength of will to overcome indoctrination. Women are always happier to criticize other women than men, because the devaluation of women is more socially acceptable, in every sense. Few men excoriate their own sex in this way.
    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    It isn't balance.
    I do believe that there's a generational component -- I truly think that this will get better (for women) in the future. I think that it *is* better than it was... it's just taking time.
    I don't think it is getting better, I think it was getting better but for the past decade it's been getting worse. And it's getting worse because most people don't think there is a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #25
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I don't think it is getting better, I think it was getting better but for the past decade it's been getting worse. And it's getting worse because most people don't think there is a problem.
    Agree.

    People often talk about feminists in the negative light, there's an assumption that because men and women have the same rights that there is equality so there is no room for feminist issues anymore, men and women alike express that opinion. It's like because a woman can work or study or do whatever she wants she has equality, but being treated as an equal in the work place isn't something I've witnessed. It's certainly way better than it was, but not equal, as rights improved dramatically people expect that to be the end of it. There's a common belief that we live in a time that is post racial and sex base inequality, like that was our past. It's not.

    I'm sure there are some industries where it's better than others because of the number of women involved but in the male dominated industry that I work in a few women can see that they're treated differently yet most think, or at least say, nothing of it and even defend why it's so. The only female who's shown the same kind of contempt that I feel about the sexist attitudes is an ISTP co-worker, the rest just think it's boy's being boy's when they have to rely on woman for menial work that isn't part of their job or accept as a normal occurrence that they should automatically be willing baristas because they don't have a dick. They're told it's normal so why think differently.

  6. #26
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    How is this balance? What you are saying is that women excel where they are assessed purely on the basis of competence (i.e. in education) yet in spite of that, they are discriminated against where it actually matters - the workplace.
    Well, it's not a "normative" balance. I don't think it's an optimal equilibrium. It just seems to be a "natural" way to re-align possibilities. The optimal equilibrium would be a more male-friendly school life, along with (equally important - both components are required to reach equilibrium) a more female-friendly work life.

    not necessarily "men", but the "give up my life for my job" mentality that I think tends to be more prevalent in men than women
    I think men would enjoy changing that attitude, too. Perhaps, if it really has to be such, then a higher share of telecommuting might do the trick when it comes to pregnancy. Btw, so far in my life I haven't seen any less share of women in "management" roles, but since the only places where I've worked are university and videogame industry, there might be a certain natural skew.

    Didn't read the whole thing, but I would say the difference is that with a tough male boss, most people interpret that straight out.

    With a tough female boss, I think there are many more connotations that come with it........does tough lead into bitchy, emotional, etc.
    My personal preference is towards a tough female boss. I become competitive/argumentative with tough male bosses. Even the toughest female boss is easier to reason with than your average tough male boss, IME.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  7. #27
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    ^Why should women be any more immune from institutionalised sexism than men are? If you grow up in a society that considers women to be the "second sex" it takes an incredible strength of will to overcome indoctrination. Women are always happier to criticize other women than men, because the devaluation of women is more socially acceptable, in every sense. Few men excoriate their own sex in this way. I don't think it is getting better, I think it was getting better but for the past decade it's been getting worse. And it's getting worse because most people don't think there is a problem.
    You are right. I agree.
    There's been some thing of a back lash against equality and feminism.
    I feel there is little one can do if other women find this behaviour acceptable. If you protest, you are lying bitch as well as paranoid.

    I don't know if I just got hyper aware because I'm in a small town, that seems about 20 years behind. I can't even wear a low cut top (not revealing), or a fitted one without men in this place trying to cope a perv, or talk to me staring at my chest. I'm talking about nicely cut stuff that you would wear in the city to work, not yards of flesh he
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  8. #28
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Ever work with a group of women and then a man joins that group, even as a peer? Automatically he assumes a position of leadership, and the women typically accept this. Most of them will even fawn over him ... stroke the male ego.
    This doesn't happen everywhere and calling bullshit on me will be like me calling bullshit on your situation. I walked in and as soon as I was done training everything became my fault. Asking others to pick up on their end was often like asking a brick wall and once nearly got fired for wanting to know how the day is going. The only people I got respect from were the ones who dealt with the accounting which my job partially entailed. I'm quite glad I'm out of there.

    On the other hand, women still having to deal with this kind of crap is a piss off. I try my hardest not to be part of the problem, but that's one out of how many... Just keep in mind there are some of us guys who have suffered the opposite too.
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  9. #29
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    See, apparently school-life is female friendly.

    However, as a female, I've been reviled all through school, only tolerated because of my grades. Aside from grades, I am the scum of the earth.

    I heard that this might change for the better as soon as I get into the real world, but according to this, it will not. It will only get worse, and worse and worse because there's money at stake instead of simple prestige.

    Someone. Please. Kill me now. I have no reason to live anymore.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #30
    Reason vs Being ragashree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    See, apparently school-life is female friendly.

    However, as a female, I've been reviled all through school, only tolerated because of my grades. Aside from grades, I am the scum of the earth.

    I heard that this might change for the better as soon as I get into the real world, but according to this, it will not. It will only get worse, and worse and worse because there's money at stake instead of simple prestige.

    Someone. Please. Kill me now. I have no reason to live anymore.
    If you don't mind saying... what on earth has been happening there?
    Look into my avatar. Look deep into my avatar...

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