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Youtube: Do schools kill creativity?

The_Liquid_Laser

Glowy Goopy Goodness
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
3,376
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ENTP
This is interesting. I've always seen creativity as a balance between learning how to do something and being free to approach it however you like. The more you learn the how to do it, the more skilled you get at it, but the more you conform to the method and do it less uniquely your way. This is why I like the idea of teaching fundamentals rather than methods or approaches. Higher level stuff tells the student how to do something, when understanding the medium they have to work within is far more powerful.

I used to teach college level math. I remember one issue I had with students is that I wanted to teach them that there were several different ways to solve a problem and they were free to use their own method as long as they obeyed the basic rules of algebra. However I often had students complain that I did this, because they only wanted to learn one method. So eventually I just taught one method. They just wanted the easiest way to get through the course, because they didn't really like math to begin with. In fact I think there are a lot of students that don't really like most of their courses, but they just want to get a diploma and get out of school.

I think what Babylon Candle was correct when he said that something like homeschools or private tutors would be needed to encourage creativity with education. Not only do schools discourage creativity, but they've trained students to hate it too. I believe there are plenty of people, students and teachers, who are dissatisfied with the current status of education, but it is impossible to radically change the institution from within.
 

Ivy

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Well to an extent, you do need to know what's already known. Their only teaching you establish facts.

If it were effective, I'd agree with you, but I don't think many traditional schools are geared towards actually teaching students to think or giving them much useful knowledge. A lot of rote memorization isn't going to stick without a framework to put it in. And if students become resentful then they are no longer open to learning. Keeping the fire lit is so important, IMO.

I think it's possible to have an excellent, non-traditional education. I think my daughter's getting that at her school, which is a public charter school.
 
O

Oberon

Guest
I started out studying education, too. But it is a waste to sit in a class full of future public school teachers arguing over AP classes or how many hours a week should be spend on x subject when you have a drastic reorganization of the entire system of education in mind.

If you really intend to pursue that, working through the education establishment will get you exactly nowhere. You'll get swatted like an annoying fly.

That being the case, I do think you are where you need to be. You'll need to get that teaching certificate ticket punched. Think of it as a first milestone on a long journey.
 

forzen

New member
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May 7, 2009
Messages
547
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INTJ
If it were effective, I'd agree with you, but I don't think many traditional schools are geared towards actually teaching students to think or giving them much useful knowledge. A lot of rote memorization isn't going to stick without a framework to put it in. And if students become resentful then they are no longer open to learning. Keeping the fire lit is so important, IMO.

I think it's possible to have an excellent, non-traditional education. I think my daughter's getting that at her school, which is a public charter school.

True, but your expose to alot of knowledges that you wouldn't generally seek out on your own. The spectrum of creativity doesn't not die when its in this kind of environment, it just sufficate. However, those useless knowledges might one day manifest into something useful as creativity is taking the known and arranging it into something useful/beautiful/etc. which is true to a person who's naturally creative.

If nothing else, your daughter would be exposed to the zombiefied world of traditional education and understand the less creative people's thought process due to the exposure. It will create new bridges in her brain's neuron pathway and will help her grow as a person. So there is a positive side, but it looks like you don't think the positive outweights the negative which is understandable.

I do see how it could affect a person's motivation to learn which I think is your main concern. To be honest, i don't think one method is enough to teach students the different subject, all students learn differently, but hiring people with different method of teaching will cost alot of money.
 

forzen

New member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
547
MBTI Type
INTJ
I used to teach college level math. I remember one issue I had with students is that I wanted to teach them that there were several different ways to solve a problem and they were free to use their own method as long as they obeyed the basic rules of algebra. However I often had students complain that I did this, because they only wanted to learn one method. So eventually I just taught one method. They just wanted the easiest way to get through the course, because they didn't really like math to begin with. In fact I think there are a lot of students that don't really like most of their courses, but they just want to get a diploma and get out of school.

I think what Babylon Candle was correct when he said that something like homeschools or private tutors would be needed to encourage creativity with education. Not only do schools discourage creativity, but they've trained students to hate it too. I believe there are plenty of people, students and teachers, who are dissatisfied with the current status of education, but it is impossible to radically change the institution from within.

I would have loved you as a teacher.
 

sofmarhof

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Apr 30, 2009
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327
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INTP
If you really intend to pursue that, working through the education establishment will get you exactly nowhere. You'll get swatted like an annoying fly.

That being the case, I do think you are where you need to be. You'll need to get that teaching certificate ticket punched. Think of it as a first milestone on a long journey.

Oh, I'm not trying to be a revolutionary anymore. I'm just going to teach myself and my future children the way I think is right without worrying about the rest of the world. The only thing I'm really concerned about is homeschooling rights being taken away. Someday I might write something about it, but that's all. For a while I was fanatically trying to get everyone I knew to read John Holt, but that didn't work.

Going with the people who say it's important to teach the basics, I do think in some ways really traditional education treats students better. NYU is a horrible bureaucratic teaching machine with foofy liberal arts ideals thrown in, which is worse than plain old rote learning because you're always dealing with their insincere nonsense about "learning to think" and such.
 

Charmed Justice

Nickle Iron Silicone
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2,805
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True, but your expose to alot of knowledges that you wouldn't generally seek out on your own. The spectrum of creativity doesn't not die when its in this kind of environment, it just sufficate. However, those useless knowledges might one day manifest into something useful as creativity is taking the known and arranging it into something useful/beautiful/etc. which is true to a person who's naturally creative.
I completely disagree with that. In traditional schools, you are exposed to a lot of useless information that you generally wouldn't seek out on your own because it's not applicable to your life; and, is unlikely to ever be. The time spent in the classroom memorizing irrelevant dates and facts could be used doing activities far more meaningful.

You can hardly force a person to learn something they aren't interested in learning. This is partly why so many people come out of the school system, having been in it their entire lives, and can't spell, don't know the Pledge, and have little understanding of basic mathematical and/or grammatical concepts.

If nothing else, your daughter would be exposed to the zombiefied world of traditional education and understand the less creative people's thought process due to the exposure. It will create new bridges in her brain's neuron pathway and will help her grow as a person. So there is a positive side, but it looks like you don't think the positive outweights the negative which is understandable.
Can't speak for Ivy, but the traditional educational system has been tested for decades, and it has failed in so many ways. Not only do many people come out of the system with little to no real knowledge, but many traditional schools are down right dangerous. Stress, anger, and frustration do not foster healthy connections in the brain, and they don't support creativity or learning either.

I do see how it could affect a person's motivation to learn which I think is your main concern. To be honest, i don't think one method is enough to teach students the different subject, all students learn differently, but hiring people with different method of teaching will cost alot of money.
Precisely, convenience and simplicity are two of the primary drivers of institutions that serve the masses. You have to weigh the cost of that convenience. There's no such thing as a free lunch.
 

une_autre

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Oct 13, 2009
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114
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I don't think schools kill creativity!
Neither do I think that traditional schools from where I am coming are inefficient and dangerous.

First of all, the info they are teaching is not useless at all. It's called general knowledge.
I grew up in a place with a traditional school - eastern europe, where we had lots of subjects - 13 or 14 and some really nasty teachers. While some of the teaching methods were completely counter productive and I would change those, the fact is that I did get out of school knowing lots of stuff, even from the nasty teachers!

Now I came in this place where people older than me have no idea about who Copernicus was or where is Mexico on the map, which is really, really sad. I cannot imagine that all students are that unwilling to learn or that all teachers are all that bad, so I can only infer that the "modern" system is the culprit. If you have just a few subjects and those have really loose requirements, you miss a lot of general knowledge!
In this place, I actually feel surrounded by stupid people.

Frankly, I think that the traditional system was better!
Now, with the modern system, which allows you to slack off and to actually learn nothing while passing is a mess. But noooo, it's called development of the teaching system.

Personally, I cannot see how this can encourage creativity in students who only want to graduate and take advantage of how loose the system is to get out of school knowing nothing. Why should you be creative if there is no reward for it?
How can you be creative if you know NOTHING???


You can only be creative if you have a knowledge base and if your brain is put to the test and trained continuously. If your teachers really ask for more from you.
 

Haphazard

Don't Judge Me!
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Apr 14, 2008
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6,704
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I don't understand teaching for the test.

I've been taking standardized tests all my life, and the only tests that I've taken that really seem like they need "teaching" to is AP and possibly the SAT/ACT. The standardized tests that students have to take year after year were ridiculously easy, and I was taking them in a state that apparently has a "difficult" one! I don't see how not knowing the stuff on those tests really have to do with a lack of general knowledge rather than students just not focusing/taking them seriously/etc.
 

forzen

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I completely disagree with that. In traditional schools, you are exposed to a lot of useless information that you generally wouldn't seek out on your own because it's not applicable to your life; and, is unlikely to ever be. The time spent in the classroom memorizing irrelevant dates and facts could be used doing activities far more meaningful.

I don't think theres such a thing as a useless information. I would have to say that traditional school teaches information that 90% of the time you would not use, but they do have practical uses, however its up to you to find it.

You can hardly force a person to learn something they aren't interested in learning. This is partly why so many people come out of the school system, having been in it their entire lives, and can't spell, don't know the Pledge, and have little understanding of basic mathematical and/or grammatical concepts.

I completely agree, but I love to learn on just about anything. So no subject is unbareable, but I can see how people just can just concentrate in one area that they like. However, creativity can arise in anything so why close your mind off on anything that has the potential to help you.

Can't speak for Ivy, but the traditional educational system has been tested for decades, and it has failed in so many ways. Not only do many people come out of the system with little to no real knowledge, but many traditional schools are down right dangerous. Stress, anger, and frustration do not foster healthy connections in the brain, and they don't support creativity or learning either.

I really think it's up to the person to put the effort to learn. I don't really think schooling is neccessary if you have the drive to learn in the first place. So in my opinion, school is just another way for a institution to rip me off my money and put many students into debt. However, the job market will not take you seriously unless you have that certificate, so in a way it's a neccessary evil. Plus, if you have the right professor, the professor's experience is priceless. And for introvert such as myself, it exposes me to social network that i wouldn't underwise seek out that I think is neccessary for success, however I find most of those situations boring.

Precisely, convenience and simplicity are two of the primary drivers of institutions that serve the masses. You have to weigh the cost of that convenience. There's no such thing as a free lunch.

"Now Opening, University of MBTI ...learning to specilized to your personality type."

Of course there would be an extreme inbalance of S type school and N type school lol.
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
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Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,668
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YMCA
Of course there would be an extreme inbalance of S type school and N type school lol.

And imagine if we had to play the S type school at sport.

I remember when we played electrical engineering vs mechanical engineering Australian rules football at uni. It was like computer geeks versus the university team. It took a lot of strategic thinking and weird tactics for us to even score a goal.
 

FDG

pathwise dependent
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Aug 13, 2007
Messages
5,903
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I don't think schools kill creativity!
Neither do I think that traditional schools from where I am coming are inefficient and dangerous.

First of all, the info they are teaching is not useless at all. It's called general knowledge.
I grew up in a place with a traditional school - eastern europe, where we had lots of subjects - 13 or 14 and some really nasty teachers. While some of the teaching methods were completely counter productive and I would change those, the fact is that I did get out of school knowing lots of stuff, even from the nasty teachers!

Now I came in this place where people older than me have no idea about who Copernicus was or where is Mexico on the map, which is really, really sad. I cannot imagine that all students are that unwilling to learn or that all teachers are all that bad, so I can only infer that the "modern" system is the culprit. If you have just a few subjects and those have really loose requirements, you miss a lot of general knowledge!
In this place, I actually feel surrounded by stupid people.

Frankly, I think that the traditional system was better!
Now, with the modern system, which allows you to slack off and to actually learn nothing while passing is a mess. But noooo, it's called development of the teaching system.

Personally, I cannot see how this can encourage creativity in students who only want to graduate and take advantage of how loose the system is to get out of school knowing nothing. Why should you be creative if there is no reward for it?
How can you be creative if you know NOTHING???


You can only be creative if you have a knowledge base and if your brain is put to the test and trained continuously. If your teachers really ask for more from you.

I agree completely. I used to have a middle school math teacher that taught geometry by building it up from Euclid's postulates; he wanted us to prove the logically following theorems as homework and as small exams. It was hell at the time, because hey, proving theorems when you're 11 is not easy. But I can totally see now how it gave me (and many of my classmates) an edge in tackling university education, which is largely based on strict proofs.
 

Charmed Justice

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Jul 22, 2009
Messages
2,805
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I don't think theres such a thing as a useless information. I would have to say that traditional school teaches information that 90% of the time you would not use, but they do have practical purpose, however its up to you to find it.
Well, of course, all information can be used in some way or another. If you decided that you wanted to sit around for hours a day taking in information just for the sake of it, that would be your choice. I do it all the time, and I like it because it's my decision. It's how I wish to spend my time. There is no supreme practical purpose, beyond the application within the institution of education itself, for the majority of what I learned in elementary-high school. Perhaps I could win a game of Jeopardy.:nerd::D

One of the problems with schools at the lowest level is that the learners/students are not choosing the continuous stream of inapplicable data that they are expected to absorb. They are being handed information, day after day, which they have had no input in selecting, very little responsibility to, and even less of an interest. In one ear, out the other. Don't forget to regurgitate for the test. Then the powers that be want to panic when faced with the fact that many children aren't even learning the basics in school, and then they demand that more money get pumped into the system, and that the arts, along with PE, get squeezed out.:doh:

I think the whole system needs an overhaul, and I'm talking the American system. I've got no clue what happens in other countries, but American schools are often very violent, frustrated places, where the children are frequently disengaged, medicated, bored, and praying for the final bell to ring. They often kill creativity, and much more.

I completely agree, but for me, I love to learn about anything. So no subject is unbareable for me. But, I can see how majority of the people just concentrate in one area that they like. However, creativity can arise in anything so why close your mind off on anything that has the potential to help you.
I love to learn about a million different things too, but I also like to focus on those things that hold a priority in my heart and mind. Many young children have specific interest going into the school system. Unfortunately for them, a student's attention, especially at the lowest levels in education, is expected to respond to the sound of an overhead alarm. A child engrossed in a history lesson is forced to disengage his/her attention because it's time for something new and entirely unrelated to their current focus. Questions go unanswered because there's just not enough time to answer them all and not enough time to delve too deeply into any one subject. Yes, it's general knowledge. For a child with deep interest, general knowledge isn't good enough. Scratch the surface and mark off subjects as "covered". Done. The children have been "educated". It seems very superficial and wasteful in many ways, imo. There's something to be said for focus and a deep interest in something particular.

Of course some people will like it, and many will do just fine. That's the case with most mass institutions. Overall though, at least in the States, the system has done poorly.

I really think it's up to the person to put the effort. I don't really think schooling is neccessary if you have the drive to learn in the first place. So in my opinion, school is just another way for them to rip me off my money and put many student into debt. However, most instutition will not take you seriously unless you have that certificate, so in a way it's a neccessary evil. Plus, if you have the right professer, his experience is priceless. And for introvert such as myself, it exposes me to social network that i wouldn't underwise seek out which I think is neccessary for success, but I find most social situation boring.
All healthy people have the drive to learn. How else could we manage to learn how to walk, talk, and socialize within the first three years of our lives?

There are some environments that acknowledge the general and specific ways in which people learn. I prefer child-led education, but there are also progressive institutions that do a great job of catering to the needs of the student, as they should.

As for college, there is generally a choice in attending college; whereas, lower level education is compulsory. People typically feel differently about things when they've made an active decision to participate and they truly feel as though the choice belongs to them.

"Now Opening, University of MBTI ...learning that specilized to your personality."

Of course there would be an extreme inbalance of S type school and N type school lol.
Ooo, I like how you think. :laugh:
 

sofmarhof

New member
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Apr 30, 2009
Messages
327
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INTP
I was thinking of starting a post, "Best university for an INTP?" We could make a list for every type.
 

BlueScreen

Fail 2.0
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Nov 8, 2008
Messages
2,668
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YMCA
I think it's a good idea. I think there should be more compiling of useful information on here. There's a lot that flows through, and a lot of knowledge floating around.
 

Venom

Babylon Candle
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
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2,126
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sp/sx
I think it's a good idea. I think there should be more compiling of useful information on here. There's a lot that flows through, and a lot of knowledge floating around.

You mean compile the information in this thread? I think a "TypeC online degree" has a possible future ;) lol
 

forzen

New member
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
547
MBTI Type
INTJ
Well, of course, all information can be used in some way or another. If you decided that you wanted to sit around for hours a day taking in information just for the sake of it, that would be your choice. I do it all the time, and I like it because it's my decision. It's how I wish to spend my time. There is no supreme practical purpose, beyond the application within the institution of education itself, for the majority of what I learned in elementary-high school. Perhaps I could win a game of Jeopardy.:nerd::D

One of the problems with schools at the lowest level is that the learners/students are not choosing the continuous stream of inapplicable data that they are expected to absorb. They are being handed information, day after day, which they have had no input in selecting, very little responsibility to, and even less of an interest. In one ear, out the other. Don't forget to regurgitate for the test. Then the powers that be want to panic when faced with the fact that many children aren't even learning the basics in school, and then they demand that more money get pumped into the system, and that the arts, along with PE, get squeezed out.:doh:

I think the whole system needs an overhaul, and I'm talking the American system. I've got no clue what happens in other countries, but American schools are often very violent, frustrated places, where the children are frequently disengaged, medicated, bored, and praying for the final bell to ring. They often kill creativity, and much more.

I love to learn about a million different things too, but I also like to focus on those things that hold a priority in my heart and mind. Many young children have specific interest going into the school system. Unfortunately for them, a student's attention, especially at the lowest levels in education, is expected to respond to the sound of an overhead alarm. A child engrossed in a history lesson is forced to disengage his/her attention because it's time for something new and entirely unrelated to their current focus. Questions go unanswered because there's just not enough time to answer them all and not enough time to delve too deeply into any one subject. Yes, it's general knowledge. For a child with deep interest, general knowledge isn't good enough. Scratch the surface and mark off subjects as "covered". Done. The children have been "educated". It seems very superficial and wasteful in many ways, imo. There's something to be said for focus and a deep interest in something particular.

Of course some people will like it, and many will do just fine. That's the case with most mass institutions. Overall though, at least in the States, the system has done poorly.

All healthy people have the drive to learn. How else could we manage to learn how to walk, talk, and socialize within the first three years of our lives?

There are some environments that acknowledge the general and specific ways in which people learn. I prefer child-led education, but there are also progressive institutions that do a great job of catering to the needs of the student, as they should.

As for college, there is generally a choice in attending college; whereas, lower level education is compulsory. People typically feel differently about things when they've made an active decision to participate and they truly feel as though the choice belongs to them.

Ooo, I like how you think. :laugh:

Ok i was going to write up a long paragraph on the pros of going to a traditional school, but I agree with most of your points lol. I was going to play devils advocate but I lost the motivation after typing up the second paragraph :doh:. So i'll concede and give this thread a proper goodbye with a youtube video:

[YOUTUBE="M_bvT-DGcWw"]...[/YOUTUBE]
 

theadoor

*hmmms*
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Messages
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It depends on the system- I've lived in two different countries and went to public high school. In one country I feel like it's killing creativity, but it's also society's problem, because if a society accepts, supports and appreciates ''weird people'', then it allows them to be more creative. On the other hand, in my case as an ENTP I get out a real joy, while beating the system. So I was more extrovert in this prejudiced country, because in the other country I didn't have to act weird, show my originality, craziness and prove myself, because people accepts my personality.
Back to the system. In one country it was more like in the US, but with way more subjects. A lot of tests. It teaches mobility, organizing your time, trust your intuition, trains memory and making the right decisions in stressful situations. On the other school it's completely opposite, it teaches how to use your mind to solve problems, offers way more freedom, everybody's equal, almost no tests.
I see that I was more productive at the first school system, because of my personality I guess, they tried to make us similar, but really creative people always beat the system and becomes even more creative. The other school system is really good, correct, but it doesn't make you try harder, show your awesomness, because if everyone's equal anyways, it kills the competition, which is vitally needed for my type.
 

Ivy

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23,989
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wolfy makes an excellent point IMO. What is it about the Japanese education system that produces so much diverse talent in the arts and sciences, when it's far and away more regimented than the US system? I don't think regimentation in and of itself is a bad thing. I really, really think rapport is the key here. The US system (by and large) is so alienating.

I'm thinking of a private school my sister attended. It was very strict, but there was an overwhelming atmosphere of love and respect along with the strictures. She blossomed there, as much as I did at the Quaker school I attended where there were basically no rules and we were free to pursue most any learning experience we felt like pursuing.
 
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