Youtube: Do schools kill creativity?

[Valiant]

Mine does. Every time I had a year when I had to work hard for school, my creativity dropped. So it sure does. Even art classes here kill creativity!

Yes...

I've been writing stuff since I was about 15.
Well... It would be a much fairer assessment to say that I have tried to
During my school years, I almost never felt the urge to write. The inspiration just wasn't there at all.
It was during holidays and such that I could get back in tune with myself enough to actually feel any form of inspiration.

I am completely against how the organization works from top to bottom.
Actually studied pedagogy for a year because I hoped to change it...
Went to a Reggio Emilia school to do my "field studies".
Apparently, the Reggio Emilia philosophy is all about fostering creativity and free thinking.
It was largely a bunch of horseshit, but some teachers were actually doing what they were supposed to: inspiring kids to learn, not forcing them.

Being a teacher is not at all about depriving students of hats, cell-phones, chewing gums or making them sit correctly on a goddamn chair.
But... Somewhere along the line someone decided to hire a bunch of anal-retentive ESTJs to do the job of mature and knowledgeable ENFJs, and the tradition is honestly getting a bit old.
Honestly, make a topic interesting enough and the students will listen to you.
It is not hard to do at all. And for God's sake, don't grow old inside.
Dealing with teachers who are old, old-fashioned and strict...
Well, it becomes kind of like if grandma is having the birds and bees talk with her teenage grandchild.
It's just embarrassing, and not very enlightening at all.
They might know the subject very well, but being a teacher is first and foremost about being good with young people. Essentially being young, without losing control of who is in charge. Without really appearing harsh (which makes them want to rebel)...
It's a fine balance.
But it's still a teachers fault if he or she can't inspire.
Go take a look at a job at Walmart or something. If your students does not listen to you, teaching is not your destined vocation and you make people suffer all day long for years.

 

[sofmarhof]

Even art classes here kill creativity!

Totally. The guy in the vid I posted is not talking about art classes when he talks about creativity. He's talking about a creative approach to all subjects, including math. The big point is "Students are taught to be terrified of making mistakes, at any cost."

 

[Venom]

Being a teacher is not at all about depriving students of hats, cell-phones, chewing gums or making them sit correctly on a goddamn chair.
But... Somewhere along the line someone decided to hire a bunch of anal-retentive ESTJs to do the job of mature and knowledgeable ENFJs, and the tradition is honestly getting a bit old.
Honestly, make a topic interesting enough and the students will listen to you.
It is not hard to do at all. And for God's sake, don't grow old inside.
Dealing with teachers who are old, old-fashioned and strict...
Well, it becomes kind of like if grandma is having the birds and bees talk with her teenage grandchild.

The problem probably starts at a much higher top than you imagine. Here in the US, funding schools is a very political issue. Government officials are all into creating a false sense of quantification so that they can justify budget numbers or claim that they were the source of #% improvement (re-election).

A typical example: Politician runs on fixing education. Legislature wants quantification so that they can politically leverage or oppose any "assocaited" improvements/failures with the money spent.

Quantifiable results comes down to standard curriculum testing. Changing teaching methods and inspiring your students is not really "against" reaching a standard curriculum, but its certianly not "the best way" in the eyes of the school administration. The school administrations aren't going to want to trust a teacher who says, "I can't have a definitive plan until I know who I'm working with" (think of a Morgan Freeman like teacher who would want to react to the kids rather than impose something on any/every child). The school administration will feel a lot more "safe" in reporting their quantifiable numbers if there's a deliverable system in place.

The ESTJ environment speaks to this idea of "find any way that sort of works, and deliver it better than anyone". They are not interested in changing things every year to better serve. They are more interested in "detailing" (curriculum) what "works" (teaching to the standardized tests) and then only delivering this method year in and year out, year after year after year.

This is why teaching isn't the ENFJ environment that you seek. Teaching in the way I have described here is perfect for a teacher who wants to have a binder for "7th grade math" that he can pull out every year for the next 20 years. An even better example, say a teacher teaches biology, but wants to suddenly teach French. The admin will feel a lot more comfortable if the teacher can pull "the binder" out that they used to teach the course 5 years ago.

Its an SJ environment if there ever was one. So the fact is that The funding source is the biggest problem with education. To really get what you want, we would need to de-centralize the funding of education. This would mean private schools and tutoring. The problem with that is that might lead to less social mobility to make schools private. The other problem is standardizing "expertise" through a tutoring system of education.

The legal system has a lot to do with this as well. To really cover your butt, it helps to claim that you "hired someone we thought was competent in _____, he has a degree in ______ following _____ standards!". Besides not wanting to train their workers, companies don't want the liability of hiring someone without the credentials because if a case comes up, the plaintiff can point to the company's improper credentials.

As you can imagine, all of societies problems arise from an increasingly litigious mindset (damn lawyers and politicians ). Its literally like an acid that infects every facet of society.

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I admire the fact that you tried to study teaching in order to change it. I have experienced positive aspects of teaching in other environments separate from academia. If teaching didnt pay the pittance that it does, I would do it in a heart beat.

Totally. The guy in the vid I posted is not talking about art classes when he talks about creativity. He's talking about a creative approach to all subjects, including math. The big point is "Students are taught to be terrified of making mistakes, at any cost."

Most of the time on tests I have to worry about what information "not to write down". I'll have the right information present, but if he doesn't agree with some extranious "why" he might still mark the question wrong. Now when I take tests I always ask myself, "does he absolutely demand a why?". The result is that I feel like a memorization droid. :/

 

[Snuggletron]

I have hope for teachers, since going through school I have seen many who seem to have to suppress their own creativity to teach in order to adhere to the systematic way of handing out assignments and giving grades. The thing is that is all anyone in school seems to care about on the outside. Especially in college when they are paying for it, most want grades and don't care much about anything else. Honestly I can barely imagine any other way of organized education since I'm so use to it.

School never killed my creativity, I just used a lot of my spare time to place my creativity in. Without it, I'd look like the walking dead. Maybe I have a bad attitude, but I find myself suppressing my creativity at school and only showing up for the grade like everyone else. I explore a lot of my own interests at home on the internet.

People need customization as to how they learn, which would require a lot of homeschooling or widespread educational reform. I Don't see chances of it happening in our society too much.

 

[Venom]

People need customization as to how they learn, which would require a lot of homeschooling or widespread educational reform. I Don't see chances of it happening in our society too much.

I see you've taken a more direct road to my same conclusion . To achieve what YLJ desires, we would need to resurrect private tutor/homeschooling. This would likely never fly in the paper chase environment.

I consider my interests to include polymathery and I willingly take on auto-didactic projects. Problem: the people of this board are at the most, representing 25% of the populace. Perhaps, the benefits of forcing those who would never learn on their own/through a tutor, outweigh the costs of forcing all of us to lose our creativity? I dont have that answer....

 

[sofmarhof]

You would not believe how stifling college is when I'm only spending 12.5 hours per week in class. I have so much free time yet no energy to do anything productive with it. At least in high school, I read Dickens for fun.

I started out studying education, too. But it is a waste to sit in a class full of future public school teachers arguing over AP classes or how many hours a week should be spend on x subject when you have a drastic reorganization of the entire system of education in mind.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Closed minds kill creativity, not schools.

 

[Haphazard]

Yes...

I've been writing stuff since I was about 15.
Well... It would be a much fairer assessment to say that I have tried to
During my school years, I almost never felt the urge to write. The inspiration just wasn't there at all.
It was during holidays and such that I could get back in tune with myself enough to actually feel any form of inspiration.

I don't know about this.

I've found that I've actually felt more like writing during school, written more during school, had better ideas during school, and generally written better quality work during school than I ever have during vacations -- and I'm not talking about assignments, either.

I guess I am different from everyone here, in that I need momentum to flourish in my ideas than silence, and what I find is that school/classes/whatever provides enough "fake" momentum for me to get going on work that actually means something to me, even if it's a pain in the ass.

 

[BlueScreen]

English was a joke when I was at school. We learnt nothing about grammar, writing styles, poetry, etc. It was all comprehension, this is what a metaphor is, this is what a simile is, read some books and review them, etc. All you can learn from that is how to copy and redo what came before you. If they taught the basic skills instead and helped people understand what these things are fundamentally, then people could do whatever they liked with them and be creative. All I got out of school was, "A good way to start a piece of writing is like this...". Where's the why? Am I cursed to start every piece of writing I ever write the same way for eternity? Who came up with that sort of curriculum, and what kind of insanity possessed them to think it would work? Is it because children are less threatened if they learn nothing? Or did someone do some study on it and curse a generation with ignorance?

p.s. I didn't start writing anything till I left school, and English was my most hated subject. Actually, all humanities subjects seemed reasonably pointless.

 

[Chloe]

[YOUTUBE="iG9CE55wbtY"]Do schools kill creativity?[/YOUTUBE]

I ordered his book 2 weeks ago, still waiting. Awesome speach, and I think the dude is ENFP

 

[Charmed Justice]

Traditional schools kill creativity.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Traditional schools kill creativity.

*slow wanking motion*

so do progressive schools.

Both can put your mind in a box if you let them.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

I think one of the most interesting seasons of The Apprentice (before they jumped the shark), was when they had a college educated team vs. a non-college educated team. Overall the non-collegiates were much more creative and independent in their ideas. On the other hand the college students were far better at working together. It seems to me that schools kill creativity and independent thinking, but teach people skills. Ironically the one thing it teaches best is not particularly on the curriculum.

 

[Charmed Justice]

*slow wanking motion*

so do progressive schools.

Both can put your mind in a box if you let them.

Agreed(I'm an unschooling supporter); although, I'm referring more to very young people(preschool, elementary aged,etc..), who have much less control over the box.

By the way, are you wanking in my presence? I think you're in the wrong subforum.

 

[Lady_X]

i've seen this as well. i love it and agree absolutely...screw the system!

 

[forzen]

Of course not all Japanese are creative. But Japan does produce a lot of creative work. So, how can that be if schooling crushes creativity? That is my question, not that Japan is better than the US etc.

You have to understand the difference between originality and creativeness. To be creative means to create something that is novel and unique and that is also useful and seen to be creative to others. It is not enough to just be original.

You don't think Japan produces a lot of creative work?

I been in Japan for three years, I wouldn't comment if they do this with everything, but they seem to have a mentality of "if it's not broken it can be improve." Japan's creativity is undermined by their fear of change. That's why America had to pretty much forced Japan to trade with them because the shogun closed the port to all foreigners in 1700s. However, what America introduced afterward was augmented with improvements and significantly improved the lifestyle in Japan. This was true with the train systems and computers. Also, modern japanese home are incorporating western toilets into their home lol. Creativity can't really surface when the workforce has a team mentality rather than a rambo mentality.

However, they are very creative with Tentacles and its uses, I'll give them that.

 

[forzen]

Traditional schools kill creativity.

Well to an extent, you do need to know what's already known. Their only teaching you establish facts.

 

[FDG]

I don't know about this.

I've found that I've actually felt more like writing during school, written more during school, had better ideas during school, and generally written better quality work during school than I ever have during vacations -- and I'm not talking about assignments, either.

Same. It seems that I get in a mentally activated mood if I am somehow "forced" to reflect. Although, of course, this is only valid if I'm studying an at least mildly complex subject, where I need to put some effort to understand the concepts deeply.

 

[BlueScreen]

I think one of the most interesting seasons of The Apprentice (before they jumped the shark), was when they had a college educated team vs. a non-college educated team. Overall the non-collegiates were much more creative and independent in their ideas. On the other hand the college students were far better at working together. It seems to me that schools kill creativity and independent thinking, but teach people skills. Ironically the one thing it teaches best is not particularly on the curriculum.

This is interesting. I've always seen creativity as a balance between learning how to do something and being free to approach it however you like. The more you learn the how to do it, the more skilled you get at it, but the more you conform to the method and do it less uniquely your way. This is why I like the idea of teaching fundamentals rather than methods or approaches. Higher level stuff tells the student how to do something, when understanding the medium they have to work within is far more powerful.

 

[Skyward]

This is interesting. I've always seen creativity as a balance between learning how to do something and being free to approach it however you like. The more you learn the how to do it, the more skilled you get at it, but the more you conform to the method and do it less uniquely your way. This is why I like the idea of teaching fundamentals rather than methods or approaches. Higher level stuff tells the student how to do something, when understanding the medium they have to work within is far more powerful.

Yes. It allows the student to develop their own tools and methods of approach, increasing the variety of the things created. They also better understand how to work with the medium rather than just certain ways to work with it. Creative people naturally experiment with the medium to learn how to work with it, but if they aren't rewarded for that in schools, well, then schools are not encouraging creativity. The problem is that schools also have to each the not-so-creative people. If a system to put students into classes that follow their talents the students will actually grow in knowledge and understanding. Too bad it doesn't work well in a large school setting because then the teachers have to deal with 30+ students in a class and with classes that change every hour.

I still think the Master/Apprentice approach to learning something, especially something creative like smithing or painting, is the best way to learn (at least for me). The master can have more than one apprentice, but shouldn't have too many.