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  1. #11
    full of love Kingfisher's Avatar
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    SolitaryWalker, you have a good point. i think succeeding in traditional education does prepare people to succeed in traditional jobs. jobs that are about plugging away, doing as you're told, fitting in to the bussiness.

    when i was young and poorly educated i was fired from many many jobs for not fitting in, for throwing too much of a wrench in the works. i was not fired for lack of education, but for individualistic thinking, not being part of the system. i had to change jobs quite often, so i didn't follow a traditional "career path".

    but the great successes i have had in working have come when i struck out on my own, became my own leader and boss. when i took the work system and made it my own.

    but i have worked in "team" enviroments where i really excelled and fit in. but those have always been situations where it was a very social and brotherly kind of team, and we had to form relationships out of neccesity rather than convenience. my exmple is working as a firefighter. we became very close and 'group oriented' (living together while on call), but it was because we all had a very clear and direct sense of purpose. it was not because we simply 'were supposed to fit in.'.

  2. #12
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Please read this post in entirety, try not to assume from the very beginning that it is going to be something you're not going to like or something that is fundamentally wrong-headed.
    I read it all. Okay, maybe I didn't before my first post, but I did after. I'm a fast reader. And I'm good at picking up the gist without agonizing over every sentence. Guess that's why I did well in school...

    I don't know why you think it's something I don't like. Where did I give you that indication? I just think it's faulty, and I stated why.

    Of course there's dumb busy work crap in school. Some of us are good at memorizing and following instructions with relative ease. Does that make us harder workers than the C students who bust their ass but 'just don't get it'?

    Look, I'm not saying people become A students by not working at all. But smarts play into it as well. But the smarts that make you good at school don't necessarily make you a good employee or a good manager. Knowing how to write a good paper won't help you in a lot of jobs. As someone mentioned, social skills play a tremendous part. That's all I'm saying.

    You seem to think getting As is merely grunt work. I say that's not the case. You say jobs require the same sort of hard work and skill that goes into doing well at school. I beg to differ.

  3. #13
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingfisher View Post
    when i was young and poorly educated i was fired from many many jobs for not fitting in, for throwing too much of a wrench in the works. i was not fired for lack of education, but for individualistic thinking, not being part of the system. i had to change jobs quite often, so i didn't follow a traditional "career path".
    Exactly. I think individualistic thinking is often beneficial in school, to which you most definitely disagree, solitary walker. I know that the individual thinkers were some of the most prized students; many teachers prize individuality and creative thinking, especially if you are in the upper levels of the school. I guess it depends on your school and what your major is.

    So I have all kinds of individualistic thinking which doesn't play with a lot of jobs. But I did well in school because a lot of school for me was arguing my point or expressing myself, which teachers appreciated.

  4. #14
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    So I have all kinds of individualistic thinking which doesn't play with a lot of jobs. But I did well in school because a lot of school for me was arguing my point or expressing myself, which teachers appreciated.
    To be successful, you need to be able to be a drone, and you need to be able to be individualistic, and you need the wisdom to tell when you should be one or the other.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #15
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    You seem to think getting As is merely grunt work. I say that's not the case. You say jobs require the same sort of hard work and skill that goes into doing well at school. I beg to differ.
    I would not say that all of it is mere grunt work, but most of it. Certainly you need more intelligence in order to be a good student than to be a good construction worker. In fact, I would say that you'd need more intelligence to do well in school than in 95% of all jobs, even white-collar ones. However, not much more.

    Most jobs do not require intelligence, you're absolutely right, but they do require that you do a lot of 'grunt work'. The latter is a much more significant part of schooling than the former. You only need to be relatively intelligent to do well in school and that will account for only 10-20% of your success, the rest depends on how well you follow instructions and how hard you work.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #16
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    To be successful, you need to be able to be a drone, and you need to be able to be individualistic, and you need the wisdom to tell when you should be one or the other.
    Yeah, I guess my main fault with the OP argument is that it's way too simplistic. There are lots of jobs and lots of ways to do them. And lots of majors which require lots of different skills as well.

  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Exactly. I think individualistic thinking is often beneficial in school, to which you most definitely disagree, solitary walker. I know that the individual thinkers were some of the most prized students; many teachers prize individuality and creative thinking, especially if you are in the upper levels of the school. I guess it depends on your school and what your major is.

    So I have all kinds of individualistic thinking which doesn't play with a lot of jobs. But I did well in school because a lot of school for me was arguing my point or expressing myself, which teachers appreciated.
    I'd agree that many teachers and even many schools value independent and creative thought, yet those individuals and institutions are mere rebels to the mainstream system of education. I am not criticizing every school and every teacher, I am criticizing the underlying educational system of our nation. It is tyrannous to all teachers and institutions that do value independent and critical thought. It takes a great deal of courage to hold strong under such tremendous pressure and almost all of them cave, or give into it.

    This is less so on in a higher education scenario or the PhD level work, but it still goes on and creates a substantial impact. In fact, it even goes on with professional scholars. I have met philosophers and physicists who told me that for the most part articles that are in fashion or earn a name for their school get published. Articles that are truly insightful, unconventional and do not bring any profit to the institution either financially or in terms of reputation stand almost no chance. In short, if you want to get published in a scholarly journal, independent thinking is something that you do not want to be doing a lot of. And if you want to keep your job, you have to get published in the scholarly journals as whether you get tenured, in many institutions, is decided solely by how many articles you published.

    I am truly not surprised that many very bright professors that I knew disliked writing essays, in fact one of them told me outright that this is the part of his job that he doesn't like. However, the philistines, the glory-hunters and the slavish worshipers of the odious contemporary educational system make getting published in scholarly journals their primary goal and brag about every little thing that they published whenever they get half a chance.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  8. #18
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Most jobs do not require intelligence, you're absolutely right, but they do require that you do a lot of 'grunt work'. The latter is a much more significant part of schooling than the former. You only need to be relatively intelligent to do well in school and that will account for only 10-20% of your success, the rest depends on how well you follow instructions and how hard you work.
    I didn't say most jobs don't require intelligence. There's lots of different kinds of intelligence. It's just most jobs don't require the kind of intelligence employed in writing papers.

    I think how well you follow instructions and how hard you work will get you a B. And that's why it's irrelevant whether you get As or not when it comes to getting the majority of jobs.

    Ah, sigh... I think we're getting a wee bit nitpicky.

  9. #19
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    I didn't say most jobs don't require intelligence. There's lots of different kinds of intelligence. It's just most jobs don't require the kind of intelligence employed in writing papers.

    I think how well you follow instructions and how hard you work will get you a B. And that's why it's irrelevant whether you get As or not when it comes to getting the majority of jobs.

    Ah, sigh... I think we're getting a wee bit nitpicky.
    All I mean by intelligence is ability to solve complex problems quickly and accurately. Under my definition, there is only kind of intelligence. That doesn't mean that my definition intelligence is right and all the other ones are wrong, or that everyone should use only my definition. All it means is that this is simply how I use the word.

    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yeah, I guess my main fault with the OP argument is that it's way too simplistic. There are lots of jobs and lots of ways to do them. And lots of majors which require lots of different skills as well.
    Yes there are such opportunities that you speak of, but the general underlying educational-economical system does not create many of them. In fact, by its very nature it thwarts such opportunities before they can even arise. They are mere exceptions to the rule and are generally created by those who have rebelled against the system.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  10. #20
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Yeah, I guess my main fault with the OP argument is that it's way too simplistic. There are lots of jobs and lots of ways to do them. And lots of majors which require lots of different skills as well.
    What I mean is that most jobs require you to do grunt work before you get to make any decisions on your own. You need to prove to the employer that you're trustworthy before they can trust you with creativity, because we all know how dangerous creativity can be.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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