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  1. #211
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    A very nice story. Let me just say something though. You are teaching in france, correct? I am fully aware of how things are taught there. It's system and methods are not close to mine and I believe things there must be looked at from a different perspective. I know this because I have a trusted friend who had transfered from an architectural school in france to mine.
    Could you be more specific about the differences? Because I think I know them fairly well too (for instance, I shall attend a conference in the Penn State by early december: I travel often and compare working methods accordingly).
    Furthermore, half of our students come from exchange programs, so it's easy to compare. For instance, this year we have two Chineses, two south Koreans, 1 Brasilian, 1 Italian, 1 British engineer, 1 Spanish, 1 German, 1 Tunisian, 1 Israeli and 1 Syrian.
    And the differences are obvious!

    In which country or state is your university located, Ragingkatsuki?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #212
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvyak View Post
    I just want to butt in for a few words: saying that the plan "to allow students more and more freedom" is "a current trend" within universities (which seems a little derogatory to me) sounds funny since basically this is the idea universities were created upon hundreds of years ago. Youngsters studying in Bologna ran everything, thus teachers REALLY had to watch their ass.
    Absolutely not.

    Today, dissatisfied students threaten to fire teachers they find incompetent.
    In the past, they simply burned down everyting with torches until the very foundations of the universitas building.
    In the past (that means, 40 years ago), they were just allowed to shut up or to flatter the Ego of their teachers.

    Fortunately, May 68 changed that.

    (For those who didn't know what May 68 was---> :May 1968 in France - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #213
    No Cigar Litvyak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Absolutely not.
    Explain please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    In the past (that means, 40 years ago), they were just allowed to shut up or to flatter the Ego of their teachers.
    I just wanted to point out that it could be a lot worse for teachers, and it was worse for hundreds of years. Nice to have a little perspective.

  4. #214
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Could you be more specific about the differences? Because I think I know them fairly well too (for instance, I shall attend a conference in the Penn State by early december: I travel often and compare working methods accordingly).
    Furthermore, half of our students come from exchange programs, so it's easy to compare. For instance, this year we have two Chineses, two south Koreans, 1 Brasilian, 1 Italian, 1 British engineer, 1 Spanish, 1 German, 1 Tunisian, 1 Israeli and 1 Syrian.
    And the differences are obvious!

    In which country or state is your university located, Ragingkatsuki?


    It might be a mad, mad, mad, mad world - but it's also a small one.

    You ever seen The Hounds of Zaroff, Ragingkatsuki?

  5. #215
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    You ever seen The Hounds of Zaroff, Ragingkatsuki?
    Not really but I'm fully aware of the story. Really old stuff.

  6. #216
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Beware the Tartar Bow.

    The full restored version in various q-factors & formats is available here:

    Internet Archive: Free Download: The Most Dangerous Game

  7. #217
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    My impression is that the percentages of college professors who are unreasonable is smaller than the percentage of college students who are unreasonable. It is harder in some ways being a professor than being a student. Both can be difficult, and there can be the limits of inflated ego on both sides, but professors tend to have a little more maturity generally speaking. There is so much arrogance in students especially at the undergraduate level. They haven't all made the shift from seeing authority as parental approval to seeing it as impersonal and demanding, which is the more realistic nature of authority.

    Sometimes I wish each person who gets angry and condescending towards a professor could switch roles and be the professor for a week. They would be completely shocked I guarantee it, and in many cases would trigger the exact kinds of responses from students that they experienced as the student. The problem is that in many cases undergraduate students don't know much about their major. They can't conceive of how much more there is to know and so they operate on a completely different plane and assume the professor's knowledge exists in that same plane which is highly unlikely.

    I remember professors near retirement who had worked with the freshman for their careers. I think to do this successfully a person has to have a gift at patience because the struggles you encounter are repeated every Fall. The redundancy is significant, but in the bigger picture works in the end. The transition to college is shocking because the model for learning is different from many high school in which the seniors are stars in their small communities. The brightest of the bright don't shine so clearly taken the next level up. It can be typical for the beginning of every school year for the freshman to get ruffled and offended by the process and start calling the subject "dumb", or the professor "incompetent", and say the class is useless. By the time they are upper-classmen this tends to settle down a bit.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  8. #218
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    My impression is that the percentages of college professors who are unreasonable is smaller than the percentage of college students who are unreasonable. It is harder in some ways being a professor than being a student. Both can be difficult, and there can be the limits of inflated ego on both sides, but professors tend to have a little more maturity generally speaking. There is so much arrogance in students especially at the undergraduate level. They haven't all made the shift from seeing authority as parental approval to seeing it as impersonal and demanding, which is the more realistic nature of authority.

    Sometimes I wish each person who gets angry and condescending towards a professor could switch roles and be the professor for a week. They would be completely shocked I guarantee it, and in many cases would trigger the exact kinds of responses from students that they experienced as the student. The problem is that in many cases undergraduate students don't know much about their major. They can't conceive of how much more there is to know and so they operate on a completely different plane and assume the professor's knowledge exists in that same plane which is highly unlikely.

    I remember professors near retirement who had worked with the freshman for their careers. I think to do this successfully a person has to have a gift at patience because the struggles you encounter are repeated every Fall. The redundancy is significant, but in the bigger picture works in the end. The transition to college is shocking because the model for learning is different from many high school in which the seniors are stars in their small communities. The brightest of the bright don't shine so clearly taken the next level up. It can be typical for the beginning of every school year for the freshman to get ruffled and offended by the process and start calling the subject "dumb", or the professor "incompetent", and say the class is useless. By the time they are upper-classmen this tends to settle down a bit.
    No argument from me about this post. Since it is so insightful, I'd like to summarize it point by point.

    Thesis/Conclusion: Most students who think that a professor deserves censure not because he or she lacks merit in personality or teaching skill but because students misunderstand the professor's action.

    Supporting evidence 1: Some reasons are offered with regard to why they do, for example, they project their antipathy towards parental authority onto the professor who holds a very different kind of authority over them. (Because the authority is of a different kind, it does not deserve to be treated in the same manner as parental authority does)

    Supporting evidence 2: Another reason why students misunderstand the professor's actions is because their perspective is so radically different from that of the professor that it is extremely difficult for them to understand why the professor acts the way he does.

    Sub-statement for point 2: The main difference between professors and students is that students know very little about their field of specialization and professors know a great deal. Professors base their judgment on the deep and thorough knowledge they have with regard to their field of specialization. Since students lack such knowledge, it is almost impossible for them to understand why the professor makes the decisions that he or she does. Hence, the gap in knowledge and skill explains why the perspective of students is so different from that of professors.


    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Implication of the argument: Senior professors who teach freshmen must have a great deal of patience. As a general rule, they are even more knowledgeable and experienced than most of their colleagues and therefore the gap in perspective between them and freshmen is even greater than the gap in perspective between an average undergraduate and an average professor. (I have known the oldest professor in the department of my major and have greatly admired his patience. As a senior, I have seen what his interaction process with arrogant freshmen and sophomores looks like. Throughout the most of the class, I was sitting in the back of the room with my face lowered into my hands half of the time. I can hardly describe how embarrassed for him I was and made every effort to interject into the discussion to make the student's views seem more reasonable as well as make the professor's job slightly easier. As for how I behaved as a freshman and a sophomore, the less said the better. Although, I would like to believe that however inappropriate and foolhardy my actions may have been, unlike that student, my main goal was to learn by discussing ideas. His goal and the goals of many freshmen and sophomores consisted primarily in feeding their egos.)

    Review of the implication: As aforementioned, young undergraduate students (freshmen and sophomores) do tend to be concerned with feeding their egos a great deal. One reason why they do is because they may have been stars of their High School communities , yet they are much less remarkable in the university environment. Thus, in their attempt to offset the feelings of inadequacy, they try to do all they can to see themselves as admirable. They do this by being outspoken and critical of the professor.

    Summing it all up: Young undergraduates, that is freshmen and sophomores are frequently the most critical of their professor's on illegitimate basis. One reason why this is so is because they are arrogant. Because they are arrogant, they tend to assume that whatever undermines their self-image is 'stupid', 'pointless' or 'worthless'. Such a judgment starts with the students not understanding the professor's actions because they are not knowledgeable about their field of specialization enough and ends with their exaggeration of their initial impressions. In other words, it seems to them that the professor is stupid or incompetent because they cannot understand what he is truly doing and why. Since the students are arrogant and need to feed their egos to feel better about themselves, they exaggerate their views of how incompetent or stupid the professor is as the stupider and more incompetent the professor appears to be, the more of a reason they have to feel validated. More experienced undergraduate students (juniors and seniors) tend to have more of an understanding of the professor's actions and therefore are less likely to see what he is doing as objectionable. Since they are also more mature than freshmen and sophomores, they are much less likely to be arrogant and exaggerate how distasteful they find their professor.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  9. #219
    Aquaria mrcockburn's Avatar
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    Getting in this thread a bit late, but I'll add to the likely consensus.

    So he's basically hard and confusing? That's about every third professor, my friend. He's an ESTJ? That's about every tenth person. Unfortunately for you, they coincide.

    I suppose you're a freshmen, but you'll just have to not pick him ever again if you can help it. I've had Accounting professors that literally taught NOTHING but about how he learned to dance and the spirit of zoo animals. I've had other profs straight up tell people that they should drop out of school. I've had professors who never showed up, professors who made people cry in class...

    Think of it this way, if you want a job where you can get away with anything, this is it!

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