The "Correct Path" and the American Caste System

[Nigel Tufnel]

No question that Ibanking, PE, and VC are all about what school you went to. But they also represent a small share of high paying jobs, and to work in those fields, you have to live in superexpensive NYC, or maybe SF or Boston.

Moreover, top school SJs and Fs all get weeded out. Few women last more than 5 years, and SJs who like order and structure often end up in consulting and accounting. Big 4 accounting firms in NYC are filled with SJ I-banking refugees who are better off making sure spreadsheets are done accurately than advising someone on whether they should invest $150 million in another company.

 

[The_Liquid_Laser]

In response to the OP I have two thoughts:

1) See this is why people should not vote Republican. It only perpetuates this type of crap.

2) Life isn't fair, but you can still be successful. There are people out there that will have everything handed to them, and you will likely never have as much as they do. However you can still be very successful on your own merits. If you've studied finance then you know the simple act of saving and investing wisely will greatly increase your wealth over an extended period of time. A good income will increase this process even more, which I am sure you are capable of earning.

You can be very successful simply on your own merits. Will you be "billionaire" successful? I doubt it, but you can still create a fairly impressive level of success without all the right family connections. On the other hand obsessing over how unfair life is will only hold you back. Does the easy success of others devalue your own well earned success?

 

[avolkiteshvara]

Even though I find Finance fascinating from an Academic standpoint, this is how I knew I could never work in it. As an INTP, I just couldn't fake it that long. I worked with some of these douche bags very shortly. I was pretty unhappy.



Edit:

I work at a Top Tier university and it is crazy to see some of the things the Biz students will do to put on their resume. They'll start The Small Business Club where they just sit around and put their thumbs up their ass. Then at Grad, they put down they were the "president" of yada yada yada.

It really is about who you know in life. George Bush(little bush) is a prime example.

 

[Montag]

to the OP: From my point of view, it sounds like you are pretty high up in the caste system. Try to enjoy it.

My parents tried and failed to move up from their working class roots. I did the same, so far with similar results. By the time I began to understand how the world works and what is required to be financially successful, it was far too late to do it by any conventional means. I used to be pretty bitter about my position in the caste system. Still, I had to admit that I was a lot better off than a lot of the people with whom I grew up. My stellar career as a diesel truck mechanic is actually quite a bit better than average in my meth-riddled-southern-Appalachain-dead-coal-mining town.

When I finished my second year of community college, I realized that I could only afford one more semester before I would be flat broke again. I decided that I needed money NOW, not five years from now. So I got a job repairing trucks on a military base in Iraq, 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. About half of my coworkers were American. There were also lots of Bosnians, Indians, Sri Lankans, Nepalese, and Filipinos, and individuals from various other poor countries. Most of them worked for subcontractors that paid much less than I made in the States. They made roughly 15% as much money as I did for basically the same work, and they considered it good money. After getting to know those guys and hearing their stories and getting the occasional first-hand look at third-world conditions, I can no longer be bitter about my socioeconomic position. At all. I have it made. In the shade.

In a few weeks I'm headed to Afghanistan for a similar job that pays significantly more than my last one. It pays more than I ever thought I would make. I'll try my damndest to use the money wisely, but it's never going to make me rich. I will be able to retire someday, though. My vast new found wealth is partly due to my ability and willingness to work, but mostly it's due to my American passport. I was born in the right place at the right time. I've got it made.

 

[Haphazard]

I always kind of thought to move out of your caste in America it required a little creativity?

 

[Montag]

It ain't that easy. I know lots of creative poor people.

 

[Haphazard]

It ain't that easy. I know lots of creative poor people.

I'm not saying that creativity is a guarantee for getting rich -- I'm just saying that doing things right by a prescribed method isn't usually how people get out of their caste if they do.

 

[Thalassa]

I always kind of thought to move out of your caste in America it required a little creativity?

I'm going to second the fact that some of the most creative, interesting, sensitive people here are poor.

Yes, it's absolutely a way to break out of your caste. If you're lucky.

 

[Grayscale]

why do you need to be rich?

 

[Thalassa]

There is more to life than making bazillions of dollars.

This

 

[Forgetful Functor]

The people on top are being fucked just like the people on the bottom are, just more spiritually than materially.

It's easy to blame one's own unhappiness on lack of money (or poverty, which can contribute significantly to unhappiness). But what about those whose millions have not made them any happier? Modern society is alienating to everyone, not just the poor.

 

[Venom]

why do you need to be rich?

1. external validation .. I want real results to validate my work ($ is a scorekeeper)

(moral victories are great... in doses... Most people's lives are spent "at work", and thus if my work success is a mere "moral victory", then my whole life will almost be a "moral victory")

2. I fear having my life's choices determined for me by a lack of money/prestige ---> I want security/freedom.

3. I want to be a desirable mate... i dont want a gold digger, but i imagine being successful sure doesn't hurt your chances.

 

[FDG]

Man, you need a therapist.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Start a business. Yea, there might be a whole bunch of obstacles to success in IB, but that's not the only way to make $. Anyone who says so just lacks imagination. Try to think about new jobs that are being created by new technology. Think about where the economy and job markets are going and position yourself for a windfall

 

[JustHer]

This was really interesting.

I'm feeling a great deal of gratitude towards my parents pushing me on pretty much that path with the summer internships and top school and stuff

 

[Grayscale]

1. external validation .. I want real results to validate my work ($ is a scorekeeper)

(moral victories are great... in doses... Most people's lives are spent "at work", and thus if my work success is a mere "moral victory", then my whole life will almost be a "moral victory")

2. I fear having my life's choices determined for me by a lack of money/prestige ---> I want security/freedom.

3. I want to be a desirable mate... i dont want a gold digger, but i imagine being successful sure doesn't hurt your chances.

I understand where you're coming from because I think a lot of people have this mindset towards their future career, but based on people I've met who are well advanced into their career a lack of job satisfaction is far more likely to be your downfall than not having enough money or prestige to live reasonably well. When someone places so much value on "winning", it can skew their perception as to what career is appropriate for them. It is too late when they find out that aside from financial freedom money cannot "do" much for your mood if you are flushing away at least 1/3 of your pre-retirement life doing something you dont find emotionally fulfilling.

Of course, financial magazines feature people who are not only successful but enjoy their job. I would be surprised if the two are not correlated in the sense that you tend to do well at what you enjoy. I think a lot of people just try to emulate that lifestyle and turn a blind eye to their own desires.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I understand where you're coming from because I think a lot of people have this mindset towards their future career, but based on people I've met who are well advanced into their career a lack of job satisfaction is far more likely to be your downfall than not having enough money or prestige to live reasonably well. When someone places so much value on "winning", it can skew their perception as to what career is appropriate for them. It is too late when they find out that aside from financial freedom money cannot "do" much for your mood if you are flushing away at least 1/3 of your pre-retirement life doing something you dont find emotionally fulfilling.

Of course, financial magazines feature people who are not only successful but enjoy their job. I would be surprised if the two are not correlated in the sense that you tend to do well at what you enjoy. I think a lot of people just try to emulate that lifestyle and turn a blind eye to their own desires.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Timmy]

If you didn't read this book, you should:

Class: A Guide Through the American Status System:Amazon:Books

This was a great book, though I could sense a sort of snobbish undercurrent from the author.

Interestingly, an observation made was that those from the "lower castes" (using the OP's parlance) who became rich were merely rich people from the lower caste.

IOW, trailer trash became wealthy trailer trash...it didn't transform them into the Vanderbilts. They were still the same basic people they were, but with means. Think Beverly Hillbillies.

From my own perspective, I can easily see this as being true. Were I to become rich, I'd basically remain the same person I am today, but have the money to do the same upper-middle-class stuff I already do, but more frequently.

I wouldn't vacation in the Hamptons...snobby people, IMO. I wouldn't necessarily go bowling all the time, either....again, the people mostly, though I have many more friends from the bowling-league strata than the Hilton/Rothschild strata.

I might get a larger house, but it wouldn't be in the trendy rich-people neighborhoods. I'd buy a bunch of property and build a large, functional house with functional shit in it. Nothing would be "don't sit on that..." quality.

Finally, to the OP: I can tell you already that your "scorekeeping" system and need for external validation will never be satisfied. You will never earn enough, receive enough praise or be high enough in the "caste" system to satisfy you. Because there will always be someone else earning more than you, better than you or higher than you.

So you'll try and achieve that, too.

In the vernacular of us lower-caste people, it's known as "keeping up with the Joneses", except that in your perceived world of satisfaction, it's the Hearsts that you have to keep up with.

Good luck with that.

 

[Venom]

Man, you need a therapist.

hahaha...

I sure hope not... i mean...its not im an INFJ or some other crazy type

Start a business. Yea, there might be a whole bunch of obstacles to success in IB, but that's not the only way to make $. Anyone who says so just lacks imagination. Try to think about new jobs that are being created by new technology. Think about where the economy and job markets are going and position yourself for a windfall

I've got a few ideas. Ive been building/testing some tra$ding models in my spare time...its turned into quite a project...

This was really interesting.

I'm feeling a great deal of gratitude towards my parents pushing me on pretty much that path with the summer internships and top school and stuff

One of my best friends in highschool had parents like this, he's currently completely "set" (job in hand for postgrad). During highschool I remember feeling sorry for him a lot of the time (the pressure he got from his parents etc).

I dont resent my parents. I think they are great parents. It may just be a personality issue. My friend's dad is an EXXJ type who would be perfect for rallying their kid down "the correct path". My dad on the other hand is an ISTP...he works hard and is successful, but managing people isnt his thing. He knew from day one what he wanted to do, and so he never had issues of "being too late" or needing anyone to remind him.

I might get a larger house, but it wouldn't be in the trendy rich-people neighborhoods. I'd buy a bunch of property and build a large, functional house with functional shit in it. Nothing would be "don't sit on that..." quality.

Finally, to the OP: I can tell you already that your "scorekeeping" system and need for external validation will never be satisfied. You will never earn enough, receive enough praise or be high enough in the "caste" system to satisfy you. Because there will always be someone else earning more than you, better than you or higher than you.

So you'll try and achieve that, too.

In the vernacular of us lower-caste people, it's known as "keeping up with the Joneses", except that in your perceived world of satisfaction, it's the Hearsts that you have to keep up with.

Good luck with that.

I totally get what you mean about the "still being yourself + money". Ive never been the type who wants to "dress up" for no other reason than to make those around you look lower class (im convinced that people do this..at least at my school they do...).

There will always be someone ______er than you. Ive heard it before. I know its true. I guess my hope is that if I reach a certain mark I'll be satisfied enough to stop....
...though I'm often told its easier said than done.

 

[nonsequitur]

One of my best friends in highschool had parents like this, he's currently completely "set" (job in hand for postgrad). During highschool I remember feeling sorry for him a lot of the time (the pressure he got from his parents etc).

I dont resent my parents. I think they are great parents. It may just be a personality issue. My friend's dad is an EXXJ type who would be perfect for rallying their kid down "the correct path". My dad on the other hand is an ISTP...he works hard and is successful, but managing people isnt his thing. He knew from day one what he wanted to do, and so he never had issues of "being too late" or needing anyone to remind him.

My father is an IXTJ (futures trader) and my mother is an ENXJ (director of an MNC). I was in the same position as your friend after HS - I could basically do anything that I wanted to do. My parents tried to push me to study finance/business but I already knew that I wanted to do research.

I spent a long time resenting my parents for pushing me to do things that I didn't want to do to acquire a future that I didn't want to have, essentially trading off a childhood and my early life for "options" in the future. At the same time, I do not value money as highly as they do, and because of that, tend to believe that they are overly materialistic. Life isn't a formula that you can plug values into and spit out the "correct" answer. There is no formula to personal happiness. My parents probably thought that they were doing the best thing for me by constantly nagging me and putting pressure on me to do everything. While I can appreciate that concern in retrospect, such heavy-handed parenting is not what I needed and permanently damaged our relationship.

It's impossible to say what would have happened "if..." and you don't even know if iBanking is really what you want. You haven't done the 120-hr/week hours, you haven't had to sleep and eat at the office, run on caffeine for years and have no time to find the mate that you think money is going to attract you. I think doing a job to "win" is one of the most ridiculous ideas ever. You will never win. There will never be an end point. True happiness and satisfaction cannot be gained by trying to one-up someone else.

Of course, this is perspective gained from getting everything that I thought that I wanted, after losing something that was truly important (and that I would've traded every accomplishment in my life for). If you never have this experience in life, you're probably really lucky.