Critique of employment system.

[Athenian200]

I've already decided to try something else besides finding a job, but I thought I'd vent some of my criticisms in order to help me work things out.

The primary way jobs are offered is via the Internet. It's almost impossible to find them in any other way these days (at least around here, might be different in other places).

So my critique of the process is as follows:

1. Completely dependent on self-motivation. There's absolutely no feedback to let you know if what you're doing is working. You're basically expected to keep pumping in effort with no feedback, in the face of discouraging, vague expectations and demands on yourself... like a human effort-pump.

2. No direction. There's no clear criteria as to how much you should embellish, how much of a chance you have of even getting a job with your current skill set, or even what jobs it's prudent to look into applying for. You're supposed to just have a "feel" for those things, and you're kind of screwed if you don't.

3. Inconsistent process. The process for applying to a job changes from job to job, and requires varying information. You're expected to put a lot of effort into each application to make yourself as appealing as possible for the given position.

4. Competitive. The system is clearly designed around people who know exactly what they want and are willing to keep metaphorically bumping into the same wall in the face of discouragement and opposition over and over until they get through. My tendency to look for ways around or over the wall, or natural inclination to stop pushing if something doesn't yield, is an extreme disadvantage here.

5. No training. I wasn't given any idea of how to look for a job back when I was in school. One class had me involved in a mock interview in 9th grade, and that was it. I was taught so many other, obvious skills I could have figured out on my own... and yet this totally absurd mass of disorganized complexity was overlooked, and was assumed to be something I should easily be able to figure out on my own.

6. Discourages new workers. There's a common expectation, even for relatively simple jobs nowadays, that you'll have references and experience. Obviously new workers will have neither, making it extremely difficult to break into the job market, even at the bottom. The reference system, especially, is also very unfair to people who find themselves in situations where their previous employer has gone out of business, or is holding a grudge against them.

The layout of the system, in other words, seems to completely defy the actual competencies of the average person just out of school looking for work. It has no tiers, and it's not designed to start you out at something simple that doesn't pay much, and work your way up (or even let you stay there!)... it's so chaotic that people with tons of experience compete with new workers for the same jobs. It makes absolutely no sense. In video game terms, that's like asking a level 1 player who hasn't played before, to win a duel against a level 10 or 20 player just to be able to progress.

There are plenty of things in life I can do. I could volunteer, I could go to school, I could even learn to interact well with people. This, right here, is one thing I cannot do. And yet as absurd and seemingly impossible as it is, it's the one thing everyone is expected to be able to figure out how to do just to get by.

Well, that's my little critique. Hopefully you enjoyed it.

 

[Randomnity]

I've already decided to try something else besides finding a job, but I thought I'd vent some of my criticisms in order to help me work things out.

The primary way jobs are offered is via the Internet. It's almost impossible to find them in any other way these days (at least around here, might be different in other places).

Are you sure? How do you know? I think it depends on the job...

What kind of job are you looking for/qualified for? If this is a first job (right?), it's probably for fast food/restaurant/grocery/retail/whatever, right? All those places you walk in with a resume, ask for an application, if they don't have one you leave your resume. Simple, no internet.

More interesting first jobs are hard to come by without any job experience and/or higher education and/or social connections, though you might get lucky from applying to internet jobs.

The reason they don't train you explicitly on finding jobs is because it's really important to learn these kinds of things on your own sometimes. If you're taught something, you only learn the "thing" - you don't learn the way to figure out "things" for yourself. Independence can't be taught or forced, only encouraged. That said, there are a lot of resources out there. Are you still in HS? I don't remember how old you are. If so, there are normally career counselors that you can talk to that know lots. If not, there are in most (all?) cities various organizations that help people looking for jobs, often a free community resource. Try google, or a phonebook.

If you just wanted to vent and don't want advice, please ignore me.

 

[Athenian200]

Are you sure? How do you know? I think it depends on the job...

What kind of job are you looking for/qualified for? If this is a first job (right?), it's probably for fast food/restaurant/grocery/retail/whatever, right? All those places you walk in with a resume, ask for an application, if they don't have one you leave your resume. Simple, no internet.

More interesting first jobs are hard to come by without any job experience and/or higher education and/or social connections, though you might get lucky from applying to internet jobs.

The reason they don't train you explicitly on finding jobs is because it's really important to learn these kinds of things on your own sometimes. If you're taught something, you only learn the "thing" - you don't learn the way to figure out "things" for yourself. Independence can't be taught or forced, only encouraged. That said, there are a lot of resources out there. Are you still in HS? I don't remember how old you are. If so, there are normally career counselors that you can talk to that know lots. If not, there are in most (all?) cities various organizations that help people looking for jobs, often a free community resource. Try google, or a phonebook.

If you just wanted to vent and don't want advice, please ignore me.

Oh? Well, I keep getting confused as to what's realistic. Some people insist I should be looking for an entry level office job, and others insist I should go to fast food/retail and put in an application. I'll consider what you've said, though. Sounds more reasonable than anything I've heard so far. Most of the others seemed as confused as I do about the beginning stages.

I instinctively try really hard to avoid unnecessary legwork, but it seems like they want you to do a lot of it, without encouragement or indication of progress, to find a job. I'm an energy-conserving type, they want energy-wasting types.

 

[FDG]

I don't know how it works exactly in the US, but you may look for companies that hire trainees. Yes, the pay is lower than a normal worker, but since you are a trainee you are not expected to have any prior experience or knowledge, and often there is an (either explicit, or implicit) agreement that they will hire you after the training has been completed.

 

[Kingfisher]

well, it is hard to break into your first job as an adult, especially if a person has not worked extensively as a teen/child.

i would try not see the job-hunting process as wasting energy, or you are going to to want to give up. look at it this way, even if you do not get the job you are gaining experience with marketing and representing yourself - every job application/resume/interview makes you a little better at it, makes it a little easier and a little faster. once you become very comfortable with applications/resumes, you will not think twice about firing them off constantly.

and really talk to people you know, friends and family, and tell them you are looking for a job, and ask them if they have or know of any jobs. ask your school teachers about jobs too, ask anybody that you think it is marginally worthwhile to ask. i have gotten jobs by talking to complete strangers.

i have never gotten a job off the internet, or even looked for one there. and i do not try to hire employees off the internet. i post signs around town, but mostly i tell people i know when i am looking for help. i tell everyone i know.
it is tough for introverts, i know, but a lot of jobs are filled through social connections. by talking to people.
and i also hire people without experience. i judge candidates based on their integrity, their quality as a person, and their willingness to do the job and learn. you are right, a lot of places want experience. but not everywhere does. there are still plenty of places willing to hired unexperienced people.
but the good people who will hire you without experience are more likely to hire people through word of mouth, i think.

oh, and last of all, if you are unsure what you want to do i would consider trade schools and apprenticeships. especially trade schools. if you learn a trade (like welding, welders are in big demand right now) you will become employable right away. you will get entry level jobs at first, but you will have lots of opportunities to expand your skills and learn more. trade skills can grow and grow, you can become a master at your trade and make big money and have more work than you know what to do with. or you can start your own business.
but then, i am an STP, and we love trade skills.

 

[Athenian200]

well, it is hard to break into your first job as an adult, especially if a person has not worked extensively as a teen/child.

That was my first thought. That I wished I had tried to get one while I was still in High School... there were a lot of opportunities back then I didn't take advantage of. Not to mention the economy was (somewhat) better.

i would try not see the job-hunting process as wasting energy, or you are going to to want to give up. look at it this way, even if you do not get the job you are gaining experience with marketing and representing yourself - every job application/resume/interview makes you a little better at it, makes it a little easier and a little faster. once you become very comfortable with applications/resumes, you will not think twice about firing them off constantly.

Well, yeah... but I don't get feedback on my resumes. I have no idea if they're getting better or worse, because I'm not good at gauging quality objectively.

Marketing and representing yourself... gosh, that's so similar to prostitution. So much for being better than those people on a metaphorical level.

and really talk to people you know, friends and family, and tell them you are looking for a job, and ask them if they have or know of any jobs. ask your school teachers about jobs too, ask anybody that you think it is marginally worthwhile to ask. i have gotten jobs by talking to complete strangers.

Actually... one of the problems with that is that I didn't really make any friends, and I'm not good at approaching strangers to say hello, let alone ask them for work. I can ask them for the time, or if I'm in the right place fairly easily, but that's usually it... I was partially considering a job in order to have a chance to make friends in the first place (in addition to having something to do and earn money). So much for that, yet another circular dependency... need friends to find job, (maybe) need job to find friends. And again, yet another thing I should have done in high school. I think I need to make a list of things I regret not doing in high school.

Looks like I wasn't barking up the wrong tree after all... I probably do need to interact with people and make some kind of connections to move forward. It's the only thing that will give me the self-esteem, energy, and social skills I need to get a job, anyway. I'll need that for things other than finding a job, anyway. I guess that actually needs to be my first step.

i have never gotten a job off the internet, or even looked for one there. and i do not try to hire employees off the internet. i post signs around town, but mostly i tell people i know when i am looking for help. i tell everyone i know.
it is tough for introverts, i know, but a lot of jobs are filled through social connections. by talking to people.
and i also hire people without experience. i judge candidates based on their integrity, their quality as a person, and their willingness to do the job and learn. you are right, a lot of places want experience. but not everywhere does. there are still plenty of places willing to hired unexperienced people.
but the good people who will hire you without experience are more likely to hire people through word of mouth, i think.

oh, and last of all, if you are unsure what you want to do i would consider trade schools and apprenticeships. especially trade schools. if you learn a trade (like welding, welders are in big demand right now) you will become employable right away. you will get entry level jobs at first, but you will have lots of opportunities to expand your skills and learn more. trade skills can grow and grow, you can become a master at your trade and make big money and have more work than you know what to do with. or you can start your own business.
but then, i am an STP, and we love trade skills.

Okay, that's very interesting. It looks like it's worth looking around again for places to put in applications next time. Just because a few places aren't doing that anymore doesn't mean they all aren't, I guess. Because the Internet method really isn't working well for me. There's no feedback that way, and I need some kind of feedback.

 

[Kingfisher]

Marketing and representing yourself... gosh, that's so similar to prostitution. So much for being better than those people on a metaphorical level.

just think of representing yourself as being genuine, rather than "selling" yourself. you don't have to try to look like the model employee, just play up whatever strengths you have. even if you cannot think of any strengths (i am sure you have plenty), tell them about how much you want the job. when i get people applying for jobs who have this cavalier attitude of 'oh, i don't care if i get it', it turns me off. but if i see that somebody really wants or needs the job, i am very pleased, and am willing to overlook experience.

as far as finding a job, i would start by going to places you like to visit. if you love to go to a certain bookstore (or wherever else), go there and ask them if they have any jobs available. if they say no, ask them if you can give them your name and number just in case a job becomes available. especially give your name/number to the manager/supervisor.
it is totally fine to go into places that don't appear to be hiring, and ask them if they have any jobs available. they will not mind at all. if they do, then they are jerks and they suck as people.

and check back again later. it is tough when they say no, but go back again anyway. or call them again. if i have to choose between hiring the guy who came once and dissapeared, or the guy who came 3 times, i will choose the latter. he is obviously more interested.

I think I need to make a list of things I regret not doing in high school.

don't do that.
if you are going to do something like that, make a list of the things you were good at or enjoyed in highschool. you would be surprised, things you think are commonplace, or that you think everybody can do, are not always so ordinary.
for example, the guys i hire often don't know jack about computers. sometimes we have to use computers, and it is like pulling teeth with these guys.

 

[Athenian200]

just think of representing yourself as being genuine, rather than "selling" yourself. you don't have to try to look like the model employee, just play up whatever strengths you have. even if you cannot think of any strengths (i am sure you have plenty), tell them about how much you want the job. when i get people applying for jobs who have this cavalier attitude of 'oh, i don't care if i get it', it turns me off. but if i see that somebody really wants or needs the job, i am very pleased, and am willing to overlook experience.

as far as finding a job, i would start by going to places you like to visit. if you love to go to a certain bookstore (or wherever else), go there and ask them if they have any jobs available. if they say no, ask them if you can give them your name and number just in case a job becomes available. especially give your name/number to the manager/supervisor.
it is totally fine to go into places that don't appear to be hiring, and ask them if they have any jobs available. they will not mind at all. if they do, then they are jerks and they suck as people.

and check back again later. it is tough when they say no, but go back again anyway. or call them again. if i have to choose between hiring the guy who came once and dissapeared, or the guy who came 3 times, i will choose the latter. he is obviously more interested.




don't do that.
if you are going to do something like that, make a list of the things you were good at or enjoyed in highschool. you would be surprised, things you think are commonplace, or that you think everybody can do, are not always so ordinary.
for example, the guys i hire often don't know jack about computers. sometimes we have to use computers, and it is like pulling teeth with these guys.

Okay, good stuff, this is all good stuff, thanks!

It really seems like ISTPs (and one ESFP) are the only ones that have given me any helpful advice about this so far. When I talk to other Ns, they try, but end up talking about 5/10 year plans, career goals, motivation, opportunity, persistence, and everything BUT the process of finding a job. TJs try as well, but end up being too vague about what it is I have to do, and it often ends up being irrelevant to my specific situation.

 

[Kingfisher]

haha, yeah if i have to think about 5-year plans or long-range goals, forget about it!

 

[Salomé]

Are you looking for advice on how to get a job, 'cos the OP doesn't read that way. Sounds more like you don't approve of the free-market economy. Guess what? Critiquing the system isn't the way to get the best out of it. It's a case of survival of the hungriest - no-one is gonna come looking for you unless you have already proven yourself exceptional. Especially when unemployment rates are so high. It's a buyer's market.

If you are looking for advice, rather than just grumbling, why not start a thread which makes that clear?

 

[Athenian200]

Are you looking for advice on how to get a job, 'cos the OP doesn't read that way. Sounds more like you don't approve of the free-market economy. Guess what? Critiquing the system isn't the way to get the best out of it. It's a case of survival of the hungriest - no-one is gonna come looking for you unless you have already proven yourself exceptional. Especially when unemployment rates are so high. It's a buyer's market.

If you are looking for advice, rather than just grumbling, why not start a thread which makes that clear.

Well, actually, I WAS critiquing the free market economy. People just started giving me advice, so I went ahead and listened to it.

And yes, that whole "hungry" thing where you have to be exceptional to get a job is exactly what bothers me. I know that on a practical level I have to make it work for me somehow, but I really don't like it at all on a higher level.

 

[Salomé]

Well, actually, I WAS critiquing the free market economy. People just started giving me advice, so I went ahead and listened to it.

And yes, that whole "hungry" thing where you have to be exceptional to get a job is exactly what bothers me. I know that on a practical level I have to make it work for me somehow, but I really don't like it at all on a higher level.

Can you suggest an alternative?
(that actually works)

 

[Athenian200]

Can you suggest an alternative?
(that actually works)

No, I guess not. I... was kind of hoping someone would agree about the system being flawed and use my thread as a platform to bring up their own idea about how things should be run, and then that could be discussed.

I mean, I would suggest something that induces more cooperation and help getting through, than competition, high demands, and holding on as an individual in the face of opposing odds (that honestly sounds like someone's idea of hell). And something that's more tiered so that newer workers aren't constantly competing with older workers for the same jobs. Basically, it should have more coherent structure, what to do should be more obvious, and there should be more consistency.

I don't know what such a system would look like, but I think those are the main things that should be addressed.

 

[JocktheMotie]

It's not really flawed for other people though. Just for you. While my anecdotal evidence doesn't help you and is as applicable as any other kind of anecdotal evidence [ie, not very], the system you describe helped me get my first waiting job at a yacht club, having had no prior experience in the service industry whatsoever. I basically went there in a polo shirt and bowled the poor head waitress over with an aura of wit and competence, and I got hired on the spot. Had I sent an application over the internet and been critiqued that way, I probably wouldn't have been hired.

 

[Athenian200]

It's not really flawed for other people though. Just for you. While my anecdotal evidence doesn't help you and is as applicable as any other kind of anecdotal evidence [ie, not very], the system you describe helped me get my first waiting job at a yacht club, having had no prior experience in the service industry whatsoever. I basically went there in a polo shirt and bowled the poor head waitress over with an aura of wit and competence, and I got hired on the spot. Had I sent an application over the internet and been critiqued that way, I probably wouldn't have been hired.

Yes, yes. That's exactly the problem. People are moving towards the Internet hiring system, and it's almost impossible to get a job that way. It's so much harder because there's no feedback like you'd get in person. If it were still relatively easy to get access to people, this system might actually work.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Yes, yes. That's exactly the problem. People are moving towards the Internet hiring system, and it's almost impossible to get a job that way. It's so much harder because there's no feedback like you'd get in person. If it were still relatively easy to get access to people, this system might actually work.

Well, then send the application, and physically go to the establishment to follow up.

 

[Athenian200]

Well, then send the application, and physically go to the establishment to follow up.

Well... I guess the real problem is that they expect you to drive. If I could drive and go around putting in applications/looking for work everywhere I could, I'd find something... yeah, this wouldn't be a problem. I know would have gotten SOMETHING by now that way, even if it was just minimum wage.

The system isn't flawed, I just really slipped through the cracks... badly, on so many different levels. Most kids beg their parents to help them get the car to start with, and then they go around getting a job that way, and from there they start paying to maintain the car out of their own salary.

Guess I'm not in a position to critique it after all, being one of the people standing in the cracks trying to climb out against a solid incline, rather than moving along the track.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Soo...how are you supposed to get to your job if you cannot drive/get there any other way? If you can't get there to ask for an application/interview, how are you going to get there if you actually get the job?

 

[Athenian200]

Soo...how are you supposed to get to your job if you cannot drive/get there any other way? If you can't get there to ask for an application/interview, how are you going to get there if you actually get the job?

:blushing:

That's what trying to deal with the world around me makes me feel like.

There's just... too much. Too much. And it's so hazy, and it doesn't make any sense, it's all incoherent.

I'm so botched that I might as well be scrapped. It's too bad they force human beings to continue existing rather than scrapping them when they don't work right. At least scrap is typically useful in some way.

Anyway, I'm just going to leave this thread alone now. If anyone wants to take it over to discuss a more serious economic issue, be my guest.

 

[Salomé]

I've already decided to try something else besides finding a job

You're not upper class are you?

What is the something else you've decided to try?

If you are serious about finding a job, post or PM an anonymized resume + fields of interest and you might get more concrete assistance.