The SJ Dominance of Education

[avolkiteshvara]

She says the state pays her to give fifty-five minutes of quaility education to the students and she won't have them cheating themselves out of the benefit of her teaching. (I felt like I was suddenly talking to an alien!)

Does she not realize that someone about to piss/shit their pants probably isn't absorbing any material or learning.

Mother-fuck public schooling.

 

[heart]

^ She took the position that she didn't believe anyone could have an emergency to go during a 55 min class period and that the students just ask to go to the restroom to goof off.

I suggested well why not just trust them and then punish the ones who take advantage but don't judge them guilty before the fact. This didn't go over well. I was dismissed.

 

[pure_mercury]

^ She took the position that she didn't believe anyone could have an emergency to go during a 55 min class period and that the students just ask to go to the restroom to goof off.

I suggested well why not just trust them and then punish the ones who take advantage but don't judge them guilty before the fact. This didn't go over well. I was dismissed.

In my high school, there was no allotted time between classes to use the restroom or go to one's locker. It kinda sucked having to carry basically all of my books at all times, but they were very lax about letting use the bathroom. I did quite a bit of homework in there.

 

[Popsicle]

I actually enjoyed school for the most part, but I did have a bit of trouble with some of what seemed (to me, anyway) senseless bureaucracy.

For example, a few years ago, I wanted to take a programming course at a local community college. The prerequisite was Algebra I with a C or better. I took Algebra I in the eighth grade. Since then, I took math through calculus in high school and two semesters of calculus in college, with straight A's.

I stupidly assumed I had the required prerequisite for the course. I submitted both my high school and college transcripts.

My registration was dropped without warning. Why? Because I had failed to submit proof that I had taken Algebra I with a C or better. I *tried* to reason with the registrar's office. Doesn't an A in Algebra II count? How about an A in trigonometry? In calculus? Nope. Unfortunately for me, my junior high school does not issue transcripts, so I could not be enrolled. End of story.

In the end, I had to make an appointment with the professor who was required to submit a written waiver of the Algebra I requirement. I suspect the professor (an INTP or INTJ I'm guessing) was not amused with the registrar either.

 

[lunalum]

-Sure, education is dominated by SJs. Most things are dominated by SJs because the world is dominated by SJs. They are all over the place.

-I think that, as someone might've said before, that this student/teacher conflict thingy has more to do with gifted/non-gifted than about NT/SJ, so as not to discriminate against the non-gifted NTs, I shall give my side of the story...

There is one part of me that says that school is the best place in the whole world, and one that says it is the worst. These sides are pretty even. School may have been a totalitarian torture chamber where nobody makes any sense, we are forced to relieve ourselves in the classroom when the sudden urge strikes, the action of speaking is a supsendable offense, and even breathing the wrong way will get you screamed at (well, lets just summarize the rest with "totalitarian"), but I still very much appreciate the wonderful things I have got from there among the evil.

First of all, school gave me a very important opportunity to get away from my house. I cannot stand being in a building for an extended amount of time, and since it is mandatory to send children to school, I could escape to there no matter how much trouble I was in. Being trapped in a classroom might not be much better, but there was always lunchtime, and the freedom to see the sun and not have my every action scrutinized for 30 minutes. Second, as much as I was hopeless at learning stuff at school, I was much worse at it away from school. Without school, there would have been millions of different bits of information that I would have missed out on. I doubt that I'd even be able to do long division by now. School has given me the opportunity, however imperfect, to know all the stuff I do today, and the ability to accumulate much more in the future.

These things alone might've been worth the submission of my human rights for 13 years, but I'm not sure. I definitely love school in principle though: a place dedicated to helping me learn lots and lots of stuff for several hours per day, and a place to where I am allowed to get away.

What does "gifted" even mean if not IQ number and IQ number doesn't really relate to type does it? Type is more how you use what you got, not what you got?

By most definitions (including the school one), it is usually about IQ. Get an outstanding score on the little puzzle things that some kids get in the early elementary years, and you're in. Also, certain types do have higher IQs on average than other ones, but generalizations don't mean that much. I'm sure there are ESFPs with 170 IQs and INTJs with IQs in the 50s.

I absolutely hated school. I'd always lament over all the things I could've been learning if I wasn't in that accursed prison!

Like heart, I kept my sanity by spending much of my free time in private study on various topics - especially history and later philosophy.

No, I know, but I meant that specific example of finishing before everyone else, hating the regimentation, etc. In grade school, I wasn't just more intelligent than my teachers; I often knew more about the SUBJECT they taught us than they did. I wasn't very bashful about letting them know it, either.

The things that are being done to students such in the above examples are terrible, however it should be known that such extremely gifted students are less than 1% of the population.


Okay, I've gone sufficiently off topic... I'll respond to the real topic-at-hand later.

 

[heart]

The things that are being done to students such in the above examples are terrible, however it should be known that such extremely gifted students are less than 1% of the population...

I'm still not sold that it takes being *gifted* to find traditional education a poor fit or to become bored or to give up or to question teachers/the system.

 

[lunalum]

^ Anyone can find education to be a poor fit, but it takes someone at the very edge of the bell curve to be able to study history and philosophy unassisted at that age, or to be able to know more than your teachers. Kids like that should just be automatically given a diploma, but for the rest of us, we need assistance to be figure out long division before we're 30.

 

[heart]

^ Anyone can find education to be a poor fit, but it takes someone at the very edge of the bell curve to be able to study history and philosophy unassisted at that age...

Does it? Or does it just take interest in the subject and to find pleasure in studying it?

I read history for pleasure from a very young age. I don't see myself as particularly gifted, I just was more interested in it than anything else. Geekism.

or to be able to know more than your teachers.

Someone who likes to read and likes to read about a particular topic can quickly amass a body of knowledge that surpasses others. Likewise if you read a lot, you'll pick up more and more from what you read because you're just better at reading and your vocabulary gets better.

 

[lunalum]

^ It is possible with extreme interest and extreme dedication alone, but it is still not common at all, and even someone with incredible abilities will need a lot of interest and dedication for such feats. You do not see yourself as gifted, but your abstact reasoning test results say otherwise. I'm not saying that extreme interest and dedication cannot bring such results alone, but with an average person trying to reach these goals probably won't achieve spectacular results until age 16 or later. It takes lots of practice.

 

[CrystalViolet]

What do you do now? I mean what are you?

Well at the moment, I'm a scientist in the field of medical science....Although it seems it won't be for much longer as I can't find a job after this contract ends (and the funding to keep me on has run out), so I will be an unemployed wastrel. I may return to Uni to study something else in that case....or become a homeless bum. Or I might see if I can temp in the U.K. if they still have work in thier path labs....Sorry, complicated answer. I might have to sell a kidney....Ask me again in six months.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Heart,
I'm with Luna on this one. It's not that common for people show any sort of indepedence in their interests, let alone comprehension, particulary at high school age. Even into adult hood sometimes.
I have had people admit to me they've never picked up a book since they left the education system. Some thing I have no comprehension of.

 

[Sentura]

the way the system of schooling is built up is based upon what the majority of the populace entering the school are. plus, in scientific circles, logic rules predominantly. i wouldn't consider school systems SJ, i would consider them STJs. S is arguably the less important of these, where as the logic is necessary and the organizational part is pretty much punctual in terms of hours. S only really comes in when NPs or SPs are trying other routes to come through the system.

 

[pure_mercury]

By most definitions (including the school one), it is usually about IQ. Get an outstanding score on the little puzzle things that some kids get in the early elementary years, and you're in. Also, certain types do have higher IQs on average than other ones, but generalizations don't mean that much. I'm sure there are ESFPs with 170 IQs and INTJs with IQs in the 50s.

I'm an ESFJ with an IQ estimated in the 150s. How alienated do you think I felt in school? I was too smart and bored to enjoy the regimentation, but I didn't relate to the few other gifted students, either.

The things that are being done to students such in the above examples are terrible, however it should be known that such extremely gifted students are less than 1% of the population.

Yeah, but some of us are in that <1%. Small numbers of people still count.

 

[ptgatsby]

The things that are being done to students such in the above examples are terrible, however it should be known that such extremely gifted students are less than 1% of the population.

Should be more than 1%. Typically considered at least 5% (~2 SDs above norm).

 

[Sentura]

5% of about 250 million people is still around 12.5 million people. 12.5 million gifted students? that's enough to occupy a medium small country.

 

[ptgatsby]

5% of about 250 million people is still around 12.5 million people. 12.5 million gifted students? that's enough to occupy a medium small country.

About 50 million are school age, about 2.5 million gifted...

 

[heart]

Heart,
I'm with Luna on this one. It's not that common for people show any sort of indepedence in their interests, let alone comprehension, particulary at high school age. Even into adult hood sometimes.
I have had people admit to me they've never picked up a book since they left the education system. Some thing I have no comprehension of.

Does being different, not common really equate to "gifted"?

Does being independent in one's mind really equate to "gifted"?

I thought gifted was tied to IQ levels and special talents, not interests or what a person actually does with what they have.

Those seem like too different areas. IQ level is one and then what a person choses to do with the IQ that they have is another.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Does being different, not common really equate to "gifted"?

Does being independent in one's mind really equate to "gifted"?

I thought gifted was tied to IQ levels and special talents, not interests or what a person actually does with what they have.

Those seem like too different areas. IQ level is one and then what a person choses to do with the IQ that they have is another.

You have a point.
However, those who have independent thought, tend to have higher IQ's.
Those of independent thought are much more likely not to accept what is presented to them as truth as they tend to dig deeper.
To be different is to be "gifted."
Most people agree IQ is not necessarily the greatest indicator of intelligence, but IMHO, independence of the mind is certainly is. It is a rarity in this world.
I'll dig up some papers when I find them, but when some one is driven by intellectual curiosity to find knowledge above and beyound what is required of them, then if they aren't considered gifted, then they wouldn't fall far from the definition.
I just reread one of your post, and I think I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
Putting aside the issue of indepence of thought, Did you mean there are other explanations, other than being gifted, for why the current school system is a poor fit? Because if that's what you are saying than yes, I have to agree whole heartedly with that sentiment.

 

[CrystalViolet]

Gifted Adults
Characteristics of Gifted Adults
perfectionistic and sets high standards for self and others
has strong moral convictions
is highly sensitive, perceptive or insightful
fascinated by words or an avid reader
feels out-of-sync with others
is very curious
has an unusual sense of humour
a good problem solver
has a vivid and rich imagination
questions rules or authority
has unusual ideas or connects seemingly unrelated ideas
thrives on challenge
learns new things rapidly
has a good long-term memory
feels overwhelmed by many interests and abilities
is very compassionate
feels outrage at moral breaches that the rest of the world seems to take for granted
has passionate, intense feelings
has a great deal of energy
can't switch off thinking
feels driven by creativity
loves ideas and ardent discussion
needs periods of contemplation
searches for ???? in their life
feels a sense of alienation and loneliness
is very perceptive
feels out of step with others
Not the best link.......actually all my links are making a liar out of me....but in my previous research independence of thought was a defining characteristic of a gifted person.
I have trouble with the concept too....I only found out I was gifted on the last day of high school. I hadn't been through any special programmes or anything, and I just forgot about it. A friend brought up the possibility last year again when she dropped a paper off about gifted adult experiences, with the words "If you tell me none of this reminds you of you, I'll kick you".

 

[pure_mercury]

Gifted Adults
Characteristics of Gifted Adults
perfectionistic and sets high standards for self and others
has strong moral convictions
is highly sensitive, perceptive or insightful
fascinated by words or an avid reader
feels out-of-sync with others
is very curious
has an unusual sense of humour
a good problem solver
has a vivid and rich imagination
questions rules or authority
has unusual ideas or connects seemingly unrelated ideas
thrives on challenge
learns new things rapidly
has a good long-term memory
feels overwhelmed by many interests and abilities
is very compassionate
feels outrage at moral breaches that the rest of the world seems to take for granted
has passionate, intense feelings
has a great deal of energy
can't switch off thinking
feels driven by creativity
loves ideas and ardent discussion
needs periods of contemplation
searches for ???? in their life
feels a sense of alienation and loneliness
is very perceptive
feels out of step with others
Not the best link.......actually all my links are making a liar out of me....but in my previous research independence of thought was a defining characteristic of a gifted person.
I have trouble with the concept too....I only found out I was gifted on the last day of high school. I hadn't been through any special programmes or anything, and I just forgot about it. A friend brought up the possibility last year again when she dropped a paper off about gifted adult experiences, with the words "If you tell me none of this reminds you of you, I'll kick you".

I have pretty much of all those, and I had them as a young boy, too.