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The wonderful world of an all-Female workplace

simulatedworld

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Is this your way of saying there are no newstories to link to where a 16 year old boy had consensual sex with a 15 year old girl and then was sentenced to 26 years in jail?

You said previously there were many cases just like this. I saw many listed for 30-40 year olds with 14-16 year olds, none for 16 year olds with 15 year olds.

No, just that I'd rather argue about it than actually find any. I was generalizing. I've read newspaper stories and so on, so I know that it's happened, but it's not worth the effort to me to prove it to you. Has there been a case where the sentence was exactly 26 years and the ages were precisely 15 and 16? I don't know; I don't remember all the exact details of the stories I've read, nor do I care enough to find out. That wasn't really the point.

Although, to be fair, Trinity is right that it probably doesn't happen as often as I made it sound. I checked out these "Romeo and Juliet" laws a little bit and they seem to do a reasonable job of preventing this crap, in a fair number of cases. (Thanks, Trin.)

Trinity said:
Your suggestion that the law considers them the same is ludicrous.

While the average sentences may be different, my main problem is with the word "rape" being applied to situations where no forced coercion happened. This really gives people the wrong idea and unfairly brands someone for life with a label that he doesn't necessarily deserve.


Again I ask: how is this power?

What you, sw and others are saying is basically, women (I would qualify women in progressive democracies) have some say over who they have sex with. So that if they don't want to whore around with everyone, they don't have to.

Whoop-de-doop.


Power, in the sense of having something someone wants? That's like saying a gazelle has power because a lion wants to eat her.

What we're saying is that women, for biological reasons, are the ones who make the decision for a sexual encounter to happen, in a large majority of cases. That's all. Nobody is claiming that this can or should somehow be changed; it's just a statement of fact, and it IS a form of power.
 

ptgatsby

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You said previously there were many cases just like this. I saw many listed for 30-40 year olds with 14-16 year olds, none for 16 year olds with 15 year olds.

It's very very rare to go for a conviction for these things, and they get an excessive amount of media attention, leaving the impression it happens more than it seems. Most of those cases are from parents pushing the issue rather than accepting their kids are sexual beings.

Having said that, there are some pretty strange cases and a lot of ruined lives on the sex-offenders list that would fall close to what SW is saying. That, and plain stupid judgments.

FWIW, the majority of females would of had sex with an 'adult' (it is not "rare", it's actually more common not), and the mean age gap is 6 years. Lots more information here.
 

Kangirl

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Again I ask: how is this power?

What you, sw and others are saying is basically, women (I would qualify women in progressive democracies) have some say over who they have sex with. So that if they don't want to whore around with everyone, they don't have to.

Whoop-de-doop.


Power, in the sense of having something someone wants? That's like saying a gazelle has power because a lion wants to eat her.

Well, it's entirely possible you and I have different ideas of what constitutes 'power' but I think this power, that women have, is huge. I mean, almost-impossible-to-overstate huge. The difference between the gazelle and a human woman is the gazelle isn't choosing whether or not to be eaten. A human women IS deciding - and she's deciding, again in a cold Darwinian sense, whether or not a human male will be allowed to reproduce/pass on his genes, which is the sole aim of existence (again, in a Darwinian sense).

The very fact that, throughout history, in the vast majority of cultures, there have been multiple laws/social rules etc. spring up to control women's sexuality is, imo, a powerful testament to the existence of said power.

Ima quote Paglia here, because I think this is the stone cold truth on the issue:

All men - even … Jesus himself - began as flecks of tissue inside a woman’s womb. Every boy must stagger out of the shadow of a mother goddess, whom he never fully escapes….Women have it. Men want it. What is it? The secret of life…
 

Salomé

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Well, it's entirely possible you and I have different ideas of what constitutes 'power' but I think this power, that women have, is huge. I mean, almost-impossible-to-overstate huge. The difference between the gazelle and a human woman is the gazelle isn't choosing whether or not to be eaten. A human women IS deciding - and she's deciding, again in a cold Darwinian sense, whether or not a human male will be allowed to reproduce/pass on his genes, which is the sole aim of existence (again, in a Darwinian sense).

The very fact that, throughout history, in the vast majority of cultures, there have been multiple laws/social rules etc. spring up to control women's sexuality is, imo, a powerful testament to the existence of said power.

Ima quote Paglia here, because I think this is the stone cold truth on the issue:

Phooey! That's just biology. The contraceptive pill is power.

The lion doesn't choose to be hungry either. Or choose the instincts that drive it to hunt and kill.

One doesn't decide in a 'cold Darwinian sense'. The Selfish Gene makes the decision. We're all just pawns in this game.

Women don't have power. Hormones have power to control behaviour.
Alter the hormones, alter the behaviour.
That's not power. That's not control.
 

ptgatsby

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Women don't have power.

power: possession of controlling influence;
one possessing or exercising power or influence or authority;


Yes... yes they do. Men are pretty easy to influence through even a hint of sex.

Deceptive power that is.

Well, it's pretty powerful. Control over the outcome increases the freedom to use. But I agree, it's deceptive in that it floods the market with "less-value sex" (just due to scarcity).

The real power there isn't in women "over" men... it just gives control over themselves. I'd still rank that very high in terms of an effect.
 

Salomé

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power: possession of controlling influence;
one possessing or exercising power or influence or authority;


Yes... yes they do. Men are pretty easy to influence through even a hint of sex.
Nope. Men are controlled by their instincts, not by women. (This is why men should never be allowed to be in positions of power ;) ).
Some women may use their knowledge of that weakness to manipulate favourable circumstances for themselves. That's another matter.
And most women are just as weak when it comes to men so, the point is moot.
The real power there isn't in women "over" men... it just gives control over themselves. I'd still rank that very high in terms of an effect.

That was my point. I guess that's the only power I'm interested in.
 

Kangirl

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Phooey! That's just biology.

Bluemonday, I respectfully but completely disagree with you. Which is OK. :) I know you disagree with me, too. I think biology is HUUUUUGE.

As for working with men vs women, I have to say, I've known a healthy number of bitchy, gossipy men in my time, and not all of them were gay (not even most, actually).
 

heart

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No, just that I'd rather argue about it than actually find any. I was generalizing. I've read newspaper stories and so on, so I know that it's happened, but it's not worth the effort to me to prove it to you. Has there been a case where the sentence was exactly 26 years and the ages were precisely 15 and 16? I don't know; I don't remember all the exact details of the stories I've read, nor do I care enough to find out. That wasn't really the point.

Although, to be fair, Trinity is right that it probably doesn't happen as often as I made it sound. I checked out these "Romeo and Juliet" laws a little bit and they seem to do a reasonable job of preventing this crap, in a fair number of cases. (Thanks, Trin.)

You weren't generalizing, you were exagerating and not helping your credibility. And yes, I know the Romeo and Juliet laws, remember I brought them up in the other thread, that's why I don't believe there's this huge rash of 16 year old boys being sentenced to 26 years in jail for consensual sex with their 15 year old girfriends.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Contraceptive Pills

Birth Control is a sort of power, not just for women but for everyone who choses to use it. For married people it is priceless for spacing children, limiting family size to suit economic means. Just like with guns, there's a good side and a bad side to its use.
 

laintpe

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job one... mostly females... lots of talking... not enjoyable

job two... mostly males.... silence (is golden).... enjoyable


not exactly proof or evidence of any sort, but the thought of an entirely female anything makes me twitch.
 

Giggly

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Yikes! I didn't read the entire article in the OP but I can definitely see that the author is exaggerating a bit and just likes drama and negativity.
 

Kasper

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my main problem is with the word "rape" being applied to situations where no forced coercion happened.

Then you're missing the fundamental reason behind statutory rape laws. Statutory rape exists as the law sees a difference in one’s ability to make a sound decision based on their age when it comes to sex, as I said earlier;

The law presumes that statutory rape involves coercion and states that the minor is not in a position to give consent, hence rape.

It is always assumed that coercion is involved and to dispute this you’ll have to look into the psychology of how a child’s mind develops because that’s what the laws are based on.

Nope. Men are controlled by their instincts, not by women.
Some women may use their knowledge of that weakness to manipulate favourable circumstances for themselves. That's another matter.
And most women are just as weak when it comes to men so, the point is moot.

Truth. It's not power unless you allow it.

Some people in here have odd views on power. Sounds more like not wanting to take responsibility for allowing someone else to manipulate you.
 

nightning

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job one... mostly females... lots of talking... not enjoyable

job two... mostly males.... silence (is golden).... enjoyable


not exactly proof or evidence of any sort, but the thought of an entirely female anything makes me twitch.

The question remains... is this truth or is this sharpening and leveling of our memories to fit the stereotype?

I know EXFXs in general like to socialize a lot... where as IXTXs prefer to focus on their work. If we have a group of IXTX females... will you still get the gossipy/backstabbing environment?
 

Kasper

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The question remains... is this truth or is this sharpening and leveling of our memories to fit the stereotype?

I know EXFXs in general like to socialize a lot... where as IXTXs prefer to focus on their work. If we have a group of IXTX females... will you still get the gossipy/backstabbing environment?

My experience; Yes. Two of the biggest gossips I've worked with were ISTJ and ISTP. Very different style to extraverts, more subtle and less likely to be confrontational when they have an issue, but gossipy anyway. If I had to be surrounded by gossip and had a choice I'd take the IxTxs any day. I've also worked with men who are gossipy and backstabbers and women who refuse to get involved with that kind of behaviour. It's just people, yes women are more prone to resorting to gossip by they don't hold exclusive rights.

The people I often enjoy working with best are those who have an element of power and/or responsibility above the norm, because not always, but often that comes with an understanding that behaviour such as gossip is a detrimental thing. Management tends to be male so I tend to work better with men by default.

Trinity is so cool, she quotes herself.

Someone's got to or I'll feel left out! :D
 

heart

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My experience; Yes. Two of the biggest gossips I've worked with were ISTJ and ISTP. Very different style to extraverts, more subtle and less likely to be confrontational when they have an issue, but gossipy anyway. If I had to be surrounded by gossip and had a choice I'd take the IxTxs any day. I've also worked with men who are gossipy and backstabbers and women who refuse to get involved with that kind of behaviour. It's just people, yes women are more prone to resorting to gossip by they don't hold exclusive rights.

My husband works in a predominately male, xSTx enviroment and gosh those men are just as bad as women with their gossip, pecking orders, cliques and fashion monitoring. And when a woman works with them, they don't always treat her very nice either, tear her apart over her looks or manerisms, etc.

I wonder what impact the type of work or the way the work is organized has on these kinds of workplace behaviors?
 

Salomé

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Bluemonday, I respectfully but completely disagree with you. Which is OK. :) I know you disagree with me, too. I think biology is HUUUUGE

How are you disagreeing with me? My whole argument is that it's ALL about biology.

My objection is to the sort of faulty logic that leads to the belief that women are all about Eve - mystical original sinners put on earth to seduce men into dark deeds.
The sort of faulty reasoning behind the legislation that you allude to. Behind the barbarism of female circumcision and honour killings. The faulty reasoning behind so many of Peguy and Victor's rants.

The "problem" is male biology. The "solution" is too often the curtailment of women's freedom.
 

ptgatsby

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Nope. Men are controlled by their instincts, not by women. (This is why men should never be allowed to be in positions of power ;) ).

Some women may use their knowledge of that weakness to manipulate favourable circumstances for themselves. That's another matter.
And most women are just as weak when it comes to men so, the point is moot.

I'm not sure I see the difference. Men are programmed to be influenced, sure. But so are you - to pain, for instance. Physical control uses that condition too, but no one has to in order for it to exist. As to if it is abused... it's omnipresent in marketing... attractive people get more money, get hired more often, etc. The advantage is systemic as well as direct.
 

Salomé

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I'm not sure I see the difference. Men are programmed to be influenced, sure. But so are you - to pain, for instance. Physical control uses that condition too, but no one has to in order for it to exist. As to if it is abused... it's omnipresent in marketing... attractive people get more money, get hired more often, etc. The advantage is systemic as well as direct.

As usual, I have no real clue what you are talking about.

However, your analogy is faulty. Attractiveness is a relative and non-gender specific commodity.
Having a womb is binary.
 

ptgatsby

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However, your analogy is faulty. Attractiveness is a relative and non-gender specific commodity.

Hmm, that's true. I'm thinking in general terms - influence comes from the sex drive, both male and female. Anyway;

Having a womb is binary.

I see you take issue with the concept of women being "the manipulators" because of a male weakness. I agree with you as far as that goes.

It doesn't change that women have power over men because of 'their weakness', even if they don't use it. One has to have more interest than the other for it to be real influence, so no matter what interpersonal control you talk about, one is going to be 'weaker'.

It'd be like saying that because men are, on average, stronger... it's not men that had physical control over women, it was women being weak. (This should be stripped of any connotation of beating etc. I just can't think of a better physical analogy between men and women right now.) The concept of interpersonal power is always going to be a gap issue - money, sex, relationships, class...
 
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