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The wonderful world of an all-Female workplace

Salomé

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ptgatsby said:
It doesn't change that women have power over men because of 'their weakness', even if they don't use it. One has to have more interest than the other for it to be real influence, so no matter what interpersonal control you talk about, one is going to be 'weaker'.

It'd be like saying that because men are, on average, stronger... it's not men that had physical control over women, it was women being weak. (This should be stripped of any connotation of beating etc. I just can't think of a better physical analogy between men and women right now.) The concept of interpersonal power is always going to be a gap issue - money, sex, relationships, class...
I don't care about men being weak. I care about weak men disowning their behavioural problems.

No not really the same thing at all.
A man wants a car. Does the car have power over the man?

Physical strength is a useful, static attribute. Is it isn't contingent on anything else (notwithstanding the laws of physics).

Sexual attraction is contingent on the interplay of hormones. What actually controls behaviour is the individual's own biochemical makeup.

This is a VERY important point relative to the rest of my comments.
 

kyuuei

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:huh: Seems like I'm going to agree entirely with Orangey on this one. I have seen it hard for women to get along in work places.. but I've seen it the other way around just as easily.

People don't seem to realize how alike men and women truly are. Separating it only causes more generalizations.. the more vague you are, the less accurate your data is, so thus your assumptions can only be taken so seriously.

Humans always seem to go one of two ways.. they either have a good, established system and team that balances each other out swimmingly.. or they have petty squabbles and blow things out of proportion.

In the case of the work environment though, I have absolutely no problem separating those which I relate to to that of work itself. If they do their job, I cannot ask for anything more.

And any man that thinks that men don't get crazy and dramatic over the tiniest of things has never been deployed, guaranteed. I feel sorry for my level-headed mates a lot for their dramatic roommates and squad members all the time.
 

nightning

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My experience; Yes. Two of the biggest gossips I've worked with were ISTJ and ISTP. Very different style to extraverts, more subtle and less likely to be confrontational when they have an issue, but gossipy anyway. If I had to be surrounded by gossip and had a choice I'd take the IxTxs any day. I've also worked with men who are gossipy and backstabbers and women who refuse to get involved with that kind of behaviour. It's just people, yes women are more prone to resorting to gossip by they don't hold exclusive rights.

The people I often enjoy working with best are those who have an element of power and/or responsibility above the norm, because not always, but often that comes with an understanding that behaviour such as gossip is a detrimental thing. Management tends to be male so I tend to work better with men by default.

My husband works in a predominately male, xSTx enviroment and gosh those men are just as bad as women with their gossip, pecking orders, cliques and fashion monitoring. And when a woman works with them, they don't always treat her very nice either, tear her apart over her looks or manerisms, etc.

I wonder what impact the type of work or the way the work is organized has on these kinds of workplace behaviors?
If you have both gossipy women and men... then the obviously solution is to pick them better. The problem isn't in an all-male or all-female workplace... but the individuals on the team. If you can hand select them against the trait would the team function more effectively? Too bad this never happens in real life... most of the time you're stuck with whoever that's around. :mellow:

People don't seem to realize how alike men and women truly are. Separating it only causes more generalizations.. the more vague you are, the less accurate your data is, so thus your assumptions can only be taken so seriously.
...
And any man that thinks that men don't get crazy and dramatic over the tiniest of things has never been deployed, guaranteed. I feel sorry for my level-headed mates a lot for their dramatic roommates and squad members all the time.
Well said. :yes:
 

Kangirl

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How are you disagreeing with me? My whole argument is that it's ALL about biology.

We appeared to be differing, then, on how, or whether or not, biology gives women the powah. I think it does, and has, throughout history.

For the record, I do not think it is the fault of women when men behave badly. Every person, regardless of sex, is responsible for their own behaviour.

People don't seem to realize how alike men and women truly are.

This needs to be said more often these days. I say that in the general context of culture, not of this thread specifically.
 

Salomé

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We appeared to be differing, then, on how, or whether or not, biology gives women the powah. I think it does, and has, throughout history.

Yeah, well. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a coherent counterargument. I hate it when I have to argue both sides of a debate myself.
It's tiring.
 

nightning

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Yeah, well. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a coherent counterargument. I hate it when I have to argue both sides of a debate myself.
It's tiring.

Genetics = predisposition.

It's not nature vs nuture.... it's nature + nuture. Just because there are subtle difference between male and female doesn't mean we should just throw up our arms and surrender without a fight.

Instead of whining about problems of being a women in an all-male work environment, do something about it. It's difficult, but perception can be changed. No, not removed the gender category... but change the ranking of those categories. Labels aren't static... nor are they isolated. Yes I'm female, but I also fit into many other categories (e.g. competent, analytical, hardworking...) Demonstrate your abilities to them until they associate the other labels with you more strongly than just "female". Because that's about as useless a descriptor around when it comes to a work environment.

Do it until you're like Pink. :)

At the end of class, I went into the ladies room (a converted closet, no lie) to wash up, and I discovered that all the soap had been snatched. The guys get lazy and use my bathroom like it's their private litter box. Ugh.

I came stomping back out, looking disgusted. Mr. B, who was holding automotive classes next door, offered to get me soap from the mens' room, but I told him it wouldn't be necessary.

"It's alright, sir," I said, holding up my greasy hands in front of me. "I have every intention of getting it myself!"

Right. Those boys barge into my space. I'm going to return the favor.

Kicking the mens' room door open, I shouted, "Zip it up! I'm coming in!"

I pushed into a packed house. Shouldering my way through bodies, I found a spot beside D at one of the huge fountain sinks. He started chatting away with me as we scrubbed our hands and forearms clean.

"Wait." Realization dawned on his face. "What are you doing in here!?"

He shook his head and burst out laughing. "I didn't even occur to me that you were out of place," he chuckled. "I was talking away and I didn't notice. You're just one of the guys, I guess."

As if on cue, I heard Mr.INFJ's voice rising from the far side of the room, well above the buzzing noise of masculine conversation. "Is that a female voice I'm hearing!?"

"It's me!" I shouted back.

As we filed out, he shook his head at me, a cat mixed up in a pack of dogs.

"Child. What will I do with you..." he said.
 

CrystalViolet

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In my experience, it's a lot easier to win over men by sheer dint of personality, in the workplace. That could just be me. All you have to be is hard working and intelligent.
It could also be the types of personality attracted to my field. I find it a lot easier to gain the respect of males than of females. Especially older females. They tend to be threatened, and act accordingly.
 

simulatedworld

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Heart:

Ok, you got me. I see that it's not really that common. Well done.



Trinity:

I think the presence of physical violence should make a difference. I just still think there's a difference between psychologically convincing someone of questionable mental development to have sex vs. actually physically forcing someone into it.

And I don't want to make the former sound like an acceptable behavior, either...it's not, it's just that no matter what the law has to say about it, those two actions are not the same thing and, to me, one is clearly even worse than the other. You can stop informing me about what the law assumes; I stated a while ago that I'm not arguing that.

My belief on this is largely due the powerful connotations most people associate with the word "rapist." Here comes Heart to remind me how I don't think words have any inherent meaning...but most people attach a connotation to that word which is pretty inconsistent with what many people convicted of "statutory rape" have actually done..."rape" seems to connote forcible, physical violence, and if even one innocent high school kid is branded a rapist for life and treated unfairly because of it, I feel that the legal wording should be changed...I guess this is an instance of Fi popping up for me?
 

Salomé

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Genetics = predisposition.

It's not nature vs nuture.... it's nature + nuture. Just because there are subtle difference between male and female doesn't mean we should just throw up our arms and surrender without a fight.
Errm. Did you mean to reply to me? 'Cos it doesn't look like you've read any of my posts. Ever.
 

Fluffywolf

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Dunno exactly which turns this thread has made since it started, but to chip in on Bluemonday's and others arguements about power and control across and between the sexes.

I believe the problem with power lies in an entirely different place. Not with the sexes, not with the peoplethat exploit power. But rather with the people that allow themselves to be exploited by power.

Self control is the key. There will be people being able to control other people. In fact, it's very very easy to manipulate most people. Because in general, people, both men and women, often lack self-control. One of the least manipulative types of people are most likely the rationals (based on the fact we need to rationalize our actions for ourselves first. We don't go blindly following people around.). I know that the only way to manipulate me, is by bringing forth such good arguements, that I rationally decide to go the direction you want me to go.

So all the talk about person A having power over person B. It's not that person A is so powerful. But rather that the person B lacks self-control and allows Person A to have that power over him. The counter-arguement is that we should allow ourselves to be influencable. Because if we would completely shut that off, then we'd have serious trouble forming relations and trust. So no one can completely shield themselves from being manipulated, without distancing themselves completely from other people.

But we can make sure we're not being abused and controlled at unhealthy levels for long durations of time.

Real power is knowing it's in your grasp, but having the self control to not abuse others by seizing it, in my opinion.
 

Salomé

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^Agree with much of what you've said. However, don't believe Rationals are immune to manipulation or being manipulative ( ENTPs can be masters of the game).

INTPs are particularly averse to attempts to manipulate them - when they spot them, because it's quite easily done. It can make them a bit paranoid.

Power = Self-control is an equation I can relate to.
 

sunset5678

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I work in an environment where the female/male ratio is about ten to 2 not
counting management. Sometimes its nice to have those 'girl talks' and all
that about boyfriends or whos outfit/shoes etc are cute but it gets to be a
little bit redundant and male coworkers are more likely to start talking about
something a little more intellectual or lighten the mood making the occassi-
onal crack or pop culture reference. Sometimes tensions run high or there
is no tension at all but it is more of a mask of everyone trying to be nice to
the aggressive female coworker in the group to get on her good side becau-
se they're afraid of her. Everyone thought it was pretty funny because
most of them kind of shrink around her and usually I don't readily express
anger and try to hold it in until I find a more appropriate way to settle stuff
because I don't like to make a scene or when others are quick to make them
but one time one of my female coworkers that gets a kick out of pushing
people's buttons got on my case about something that wasn't even work
related and started criticising me on it saying that it related to my abilities
to be able to hold down a job and I got in her face and reminded her that
she wasn't management and pretty much told her she needed to step off
and start treating people with some respect and the only distraction was her
bringing stuff up others weren't even mentioning because they knew they
were there to get their work done and not keep up with stuff to try to
impress everybody. sometimes a close to even gender ratio's a good thing
because it tones down clique mentality some. I'm only employed part time
so I just remind myself its stupid to try to keep up with gossip to please
people I'm not even around all the time anyhow, I've been told better that
people will use you or some just want to run around with who's 'available.'
 

Galusha

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"'men [are] as a rule more conversant with business affairs than . . . women... it is a matter of common knowledge, that women still are not engaged in politics, the professions, business or industry to the extent that men are'...[someone] might reasonably have 'concluded that in general men are better qualified to act as an administrator than are women'."
- Frontiero v. Richardson(1973)

I had to read this supreme court opinion yesterday. Please tear it apart. can you believe that this was legitimate legal reasoning only 30 years ago? Gah!
 

Randomnity

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I worked in an all-female environment once and it was fine. Might have been because it was in science (= on average, I think, more logical people than the norm) and because it was pretty small (6-8 other girls there) so maybe I just lucked out. There was really none of the stereotypical female behavior some of you (and this woman) have experienced...everyone was no more and no less reasonable than anywhere else I've worked, no real drama.

I can see how encouraging/demanding an all-female workplace would attract the wrong sort of women though...
 

sculpting

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please god no, I hate working with women.

They are so much less straightforward then men and can be so catty sometimes.

I am in science so it is minimized however I currently work for the cattiest ESTJ ever. It is painful to watch her.
 
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