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  1. #101
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby
    It doesn't change that women have power over men because of 'their weakness', even if they don't use it. One has to have more interest than the other for it to be real influence, so no matter what interpersonal control you talk about, one is going to be 'weaker'.

    It'd be like saying that because men are, on average, stronger... it's not men that had physical control over women, it was women being weak. (This should be stripped of any connotation of beating etc. I just can't think of a better physical analogy between men and women right now.) The concept of interpersonal power is always going to be a gap issue - money, sex, relationships, class...
    I don't care about men being weak. I care about weak men disowning their behavioural problems.

    No not really the same thing at all.
    A man wants a car. Does the car have power over the man?

    Physical strength is a useful, static attribute. Is it isn't contingent on anything else (notwithstanding the laws of physics).

    Sexual attraction is contingent on the interplay of hormones. What actually controls behaviour is the individual's own biochemical makeup.

    This is a VERY important point relative to the rest of my comments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #102
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    I don't care about men being weak. I care about weak men disowning their behavioural problems.
    Ah.

  3. #103
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Seems like I'm going to agree entirely with Orangey on this one. I have seen it hard for women to get along in work places.. but I've seen it the other way around just as easily.

    People don't seem to realize how alike men and women truly are. Separating it only causes more generalizations.. the more vague you are, the less accurate your data is, so thus your assumptions can only be taken so seriously.

    Humans always seem to go one of two ways.. they either have a good, established system and team that balances each other out swimmingly.. or they have petty squabbles and blow things out of proportion.

    In the case of the work environment though, I have absolutely no problem separating those which I relate to to that of work itself. If they do their job, I cannot ask for anything more.

    And any man that thinks that men don't get crazy and dramatic over the tiniest of things has never been deployed, guaranteed. I feel sorry for my level-headed mates a lot for their dramatic roommates and squad members all the time.
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  4. #104
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinity View Post
    My experience; Yes. Two of the biggest gossips I've worked with were ISTJ and ISTP. Very different style to extraverts, more subtle and less likely to be confrontational when they have an issue, but gossipy anyway. If I had to be surrounded by gossip and had a choice I'd take the IxTxs any day. I've also worked with men who are gossipy and backstabbers and women who refuse to get involved with that kind of behaviour. It's just people, yes women are more prone to resorting to gossip by they don't hold exclusive rights.

    The people I often enjoy working with best are those who have an element of power and/or responsibility above the norm, because not always, but often that comes with an understanding that behaviour such as gossip is a detrimental thing. Management tends to be male so I tend to work better with men by default.
    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    My husband works in a predominately male, xSTx enviroment and gosh those men are just as bad as women with their gossip, pecking orders, cliques and fashion monitoring. And when a woman works with them, they don't always treat her very nice either, tear her apart over her looks or manerisms, etc.

    I wonder what impact the type of work or the way the work is organized has on these kinds of workplace behaviors?
    If you have both gossipy women and men... then the obviously solution is to pick them better. The problem isn't in an all-male or all-female workplace... but the individuals on the team. If you can hand select them against the trait would the team function more effectively? Too bad this never happens in real life... most of the time you're stuck with whoever that's around.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    People don't seem to realize how alike men and women truly are. Separating it only causes more generalizations.. the more vague you are, the less accurate your data is, so thus your assumptions can only be taken so seriously.
    ...
    And any man that thinks that men don't get crazy and dramatic over the tiniest of things has never been deployed, guaranteed. I feel sorry for my level-headed mates a lot for their dramatic roommates and squad members all the time.
    Well said.
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  5. #105
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    How are you disagreeing with me? My whole argument is that it's ALL about biology.
    We appeared to be differing, then, on how, or whether or not, biology gives women the powah. I think it does, and has, throughout history.

    For the record, I do not think it is the fault of women when men behave badly. Every person, regardless of sex, is responsible for their own behaviour.

    People don't seem to realize how alike men and women truly are.
    This needs to be said more often these days. I say that in the general context of culture, not of this thread specifically.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  6. #106
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    We appeared to be differing, then, on how, or whether or not, biology gives women the powah. I think it does, and has, throughout history.
    Yeah, well. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a coherent counterargument. I hate it when I have to argue both sides of a debate myself.
    It's tiring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #107
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Yeah, well. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a coherent counterargument. I hate it when I have to argue both sides of a debate myself.
    It's tiring.
    Genetics = predisposition.

    It's not nature vs nuture.... it's nature + nuture. Just because there are subtle difference between male and female doesn't mean we should just throw up our arms and surrender without a fight.

    Instead of whining about problems of being a women in an all-male work environment, do something about it. It's difficult, but perception can be changed. No, not removed the gender category... but change the ranking of those categories. Labels aren't static... nor are they isolated. Yes I'm female, but I also fit into many other categories (e.g. competent, analytical, hardworking...) Demonstrate your abilities to them until they associate the other labels with you more strongly than just "female". Because that's about as useless a descriptor around when it comes to a work environment.

    Do it until you're like Pink.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkPiranha View Post
    At the end of class, I went into the ladies room (a converted closet, no lie) to wash up, and I discovered that all the soap had been snatched. The guys get lazy and use my bathroom like it's their private litter box. Ugh.

    I came stomping back out, looking disgusted. Mr. B, who was holding automotive classes next door, offered to get me soap from the mens' room, but I told him it wouldn't be necessary.

    "It's alright, sir," I said, holding up my greasy hands in front of me. "I have every intention of getting it myself!"

    Right. Those boys barge into my space. I'm going to return the favor.

    Kicking the mens' room door open, I shouted, "Zip it up! I'm coming in!"

    I pushed into a packed house. Shouldering my way through bodies, I found a spot beside D at one of the huge fountain sinks. He started chatting away with me as we scrubbed our hands and forearms clean.

    "Wait." Realization dawned on his face. "What are you doing in here!?"

    He shook his head and burst out laughing. "I didn't even occur to me that you were out of place," he chuckled. "I was talking away and I didn't notice. You're just one of the guys, I guess."

    As if on cue, I heard Mr.INFJ's voice rising from the far side of the room, well above the buzzing noise of masculine conversation. "Is that a female voice I'm hearing!?"

    "It's me!" I shouted back.

    As we filed out, he shook his head at me, a cat mixed up in a pack of dogs.

    "Child. What will I do with you..." he said.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  8. #108
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    In my experience, it's a lot easier to win over men by sheer dint of personality, in the workplace. That could just be me. All you have to be is hard working and intelligent.
    It could also be the types of personality attracted to my field. I find it a lot easier to gain the respect of males than of females. Especially older females. They tend to be threatened, and act accordingly.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  9. #109
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Heart:

    Ok, you got me. I see that it's not really that common. Well done.



    Trinity:

    I think the presence of physical violence should make a difference. I just still think there's a difference between psychologically convincing someone of questionable mental development to have sex vs. actually physically forcing someone into it.

    And I don't want to make the former sound like an acceptable behavior, either...it's not, it's just that no matter what the law has to say about it, those two actions are not the same thing and, to me, one is clearly even worse than the other. You can stop informing me about what the law assumes; I stated a while ago that I'm not arguing that.

    My belief on this is largely due the powerful connotations most people associate with the word "rapist." Here comes Heart to remind me how I don't think words have any inherent meaning...but most people attach a connotation to that word which is pretty inconsistent with what many people convicted of "statutory rape" have actually done..."rape" seems to connote forcible, physical violence, and if even one innocent high school kid is branded a rapist for life and treated unfairly because of it, I feel that the legal wording should be changed...I guess this is an instance of Fi popping up for me?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #110
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Genetics = predisposition.

    It's not nature vs nuture.... it's nature + nuture. Just because there are subtle difference between male and female doesn't mean we should just throw up our arms and surrender without a fight.
    Errm. Did you mean to reply to me? 'Cos it doesn't look like you've read any of my posts. Ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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