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  1. #41
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    pt mostly answered it for the professional setting. When I first read the OP, Not2bforgot10 came off to me as more intent on self-expression than helping the patient in the therapist office. It's not about her...if she knows that several facial piercings and multicolored hair or whatever is going to turn off her clients then I'd think if she's truly there for them and not for herself she'd change her outward appearance.
    I actually think she is quite brave and unselfish (if a little idealistic) in her attitude, she wants to change perceptions starting with herself, that is bold and admirable. It's about individuals being people, before anything else. To pretend that all therapists are inwardly the same because they all share the same outward appearance is just wrong. Pretending that professionals are professionals before people, is completely unrealistic.

    There are so many venues available for self-expression so to me the question is when and where to express myself, not should if it be done at all. What's practical for your place of employment? I go to the hair salon and all the stylists have funky hair colors and styles and that's totally alright. My job is pretty casual so jeans and suits aren't out of place, but we still have a dress code. If someone comes in like they're about to get on a pole, that's totally out of place. At that point it's not about self-expression to me, it's just I'm going to do what I want to do regardless of anyone else.
    All I'm saying is that ideally abilty should rate much higher than appearance in most jobs but so often it just goes to show that conformity is very highly valued.

    Yes, I do prefer someone who's upfront about themselves but it's not like someone who's in a suit isn't being upfront about themselves either. This also kind of relates to why I started the maturity thread, because I think a big part of being a mature person is seeing yourself as others see you and realizing the ramifications (positive or negative) of your actions.
    How do you do this by the way? Without asking others directly and coming across as selfabsorbed? I'm curious.

    Personally, I can related a lot to what the OP says. I have dreadlocks in my hair and my parents swear up and down that it's going to harm my career. Absolutely nothing anyone can say would make me change my hair. So I do understand those non-negligible parts of yourself that people either have to take or leave. If my hair stops me from getting a job then that's something I'm prepared to deal with and maybe that's not where I want to work.
    But why should hair be a barrier at all? Why should you have to change something that is so irrelevant to your ability to do the job. It's hair not a (dis)qualification.

  2. #42
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    ...and what does that tell us (other than the fact that she takes advice from internet forums)?
    That she isn't serious about the job.

  3. #43
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    That she isn't serious about the job.
    But she's exactly the same person just in one case she has decided to listen to internet forum advice and the other she hasn't. In both cases she could be equally unserious about the job. Dressing up shows that she knows what you want, but that's it, it tells nothing of her motive or ability.

  4. #44
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    But she's exactly the same person just in one case she has decided to listen to internet forum advice and the other she hasn't.
    Yes. I wouldn't want to hire someone who puts expressing themselves, at work, with clients, ahead of the job... so she has told me exactly where her priorities lie. If she shows up ready for an interview, I'm not going to know if she holds the same attitude, never had the attitude, changed because of the internet, or changed because she agreed with the arguments for professionalism...

    But I will know what she chose if she doesn't change.

    I am filling a role. When I hire, I expect that person to fill the role. Obviously I'm going to look at experience and history above anything else... but this is telling me that I'm dealing with someone inflexible. I can't depend on that person to fit into the role smoothly. Even pigtails might be serious enough if I was running a corporate/executive geared counselling company. But I can't say it would be a plus, even if it was hiring for kids/school... not for the interview, anyway. Depends on my read of the person and why they did it.

    In both cases she could be equally unserious about the job. Dressing up shows that she knows what you want, but that's it, it tells nothing of her motive or ability.
    No, it does tell me something - that she is not willing to change herself/expressing herself to get the job. She is less serious about the job than the need to conform.

    I'm a big believer in using the right information to make the right decision... this is a rather small piece of information... but if you scale it up to the attitude that is likely to manifest in other ways, a small signal can be an iceberg. And if I have no better information to go on, that's what I'm going to go on.

    (This is just to emphasize that pigtails is a pretty insignificant detail, and since no two people are identical, it's not like I would have to pick from just that detail... and that detail doesn't mean much without knowing the reason for it... and it depends on the job. So this is mostly a generalized discussion now )

  5. #45
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    (This is just to emphasize that pigtails is a pretty insignificant detail, and since no two people are identical, it's not like I would have to pick from just that detail... and that detail doesn't mean much without knowing the reason for it... and it depends on the job. So this is mostly a generalized discussion now )
    So we agree then?

    Some people do blow those insignificant details out of proportion though.

    It is interesting though, the abilty to conform easily is obviously a very valuable tool, no wonder our education systems encourage conformity.

  6. #46
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    ...the abilty to conform easily is obviously a very valuable tool, no wonder our education systems encourage conformity.
    Yes, our education is still based on Prussian pedagogy.

    And Prussian pedagogy was not designed to nurture creativity.

    In fact Prussian pedagogy was designed to nurture conformity.

    But today with the electronic media, such as the one in front of you, we are moving into presence.

    So oddly enough, we are teaching conformity when the noosphere is moving from creativity to presence and has left conformity way, way behind.

    So the dissociation of education and the noosphere has become a gulf.

    And so the type of personality produced today is neither conformist nor creative nor even present, but dissociated.

    Today it is the dissociated personality that fits the environment.

    And it is MBTI that validates the dissociated personality.

    So it is no wonder that two and a quarter million Americans do the MBTI test every year.

    It does not good at all to say that MBTI is bogus personality test with unsavory origins - because it meets the needs of today.

    MBTI successfully meets the needs of millions upon millions of dissociated personalities.

    And so MBTI is a success.

  7. #47
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    So we agree then?

    Some people do blow those insignificant details out of proportion though.

    It is interesting though, the abilty to conform easily is obviously a very valuable tool, no wonder our education systems encourage conformity.
    The problem with the "insignificant details" is knowing which ones are indicators of something more significant and which ones are benign and meaningless.

    This kind of reminds of the a doctor's bedside manner. Do you convey the feeling of being competent, do you convey the feeling of caring for the patient, do you convey being knowledgeable? It's an attitude a person is able to communicate to someone that allays their anxieties. If you know that having a face full of piercings interrupts that (us smaller minds find that distracting) do you make the other person change or do you change yourself, especially considering your line of work? Of course, someone can lie and deceive. I'm not trying to weight one more heavily than the other, but what counts for anything if everything's just an insignificant detail?

    You ever walked down a dark empty street in the wee hours of the morning and see some menacing looking person walking up on you? What goes through your mind? Doesn't something about their appearance indicate something about them? This isn't true 100% of the time, but it's true often enough for it not to be ignored. The appearance of a thing often advertises what it is.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  8. #48
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    So the question... Should psychotherapists be allowed to exhibit themselves (fashion-wise) however they want?
    Legally? Sure, have at it. But anyone who does this in practice needs to be prepared for maybe not getting as many jobs as they would like to.

    If I go to a job interview, it means I want the job. If I want the job, I want to maximise my chances of getting the job. I'd take the pigtails out. Does this make me inauthentic? Not imo, it just means I'm willing to do what's necessary to get the job.

    If I'm the one giving the interview and someone shows up with holes in their pants and pigtails, they'd hurt their chances of getting the job. Especially if it's a short interview and I don't have much to go on.

    It's weird to me when people feel very strongly about stuff like...pigtails... and what they say about that person's 'being'. It's not about *you* - it's not about how authentic you feel. In your own house, on your own, it is. But at a workplace? No, that's about doing a job, not about expressing yourself.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  9. #49
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    The problem with the "insignificant details" is knowing which ones are indicators of something more significant and which ones are benign and meaningless.

    This kind of reminds of the a doctor's bedside manner. Do you convey the feeling of being competent, do you convey the feeling of caring for the patient, do you convey being knowledgeable? It's an attitude a person is able to communicate to someone that allays their anxieties. If you know that having a face full of piercings interrupts that (us smaller minds find that distracting) do you make the other person change or do you change yourself, especially considering your line of work? Of course, someone can lie and deceive. I'm not trying to weight one more heavily than the other, but what counts for anything if everything's just an insignificant detail?
    What about House? He may be an arsehole and have zero bedside manner but I know for sure who I would want by my bedside if I had a mysterious rare illness (if I lived in tv land). *Note: I don't really watch House so maybe a stupid example.

    You ever walked down a dark empty street in the wee hours of the morning and see some menacing looking person walking up on you? What goes through your mind? Doesn't something about their appearance indicate something about them? This isn't true 100% of the time, but it's true often enough for it not to be ignored. The appearance of a thing often advertises what it is.
    I'm suspicious of everyone and tolerant of most, but I'm strange like that.

  10. #50
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    What about House? He may be an arsehole and have zero bedside manner but I know for sure who I would want by my bedside if I had a mysterious rare illness (if I lived in tv land). *Note: I don't really watch House so maybe a stupid example.
    Yeah I used to watch House but it became too painful around the third season. And I did think about him when I thought about the whole bedside manner thingy. I remember talking to my doctor friend about House and she said he wouldn't have even made it through residency if he was that big of an asshole (and didn't hide it).

    Would I want him as my doctor? Eesh, that's actually a hard question. I'm going to get a bit personal.

    Recently my mother was hospitalized in very critical condition. Let's just say the doctor acted really detached from her referring to her as "the patient," never using her name, saying that it's unlikely she'll live, even my IxTP siblings thought she was extremely dispassionate. The manner in which the doctor acted affected how the nurses treated my mother or at least I thought it did. The next week a different team of doctors handled my mother. The difference was unbelievable. Not that the new doctor was petting us or anything, but I felt like there was a bit more humanity.

    Which doctor was more capable? Well I felt that the second team of doctors appeared more capable because there was an element of care that wasn't with the previous team. That colored my perception. Objectively the level of care was probably about the same. I really have no idea, but it made a difference as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm suspicious of everyone and tolerant of most, but I'm strange like that.
    It's OK, I'm strangely tolerant of strange people.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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