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  1. #31
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    The thing I find most amusing about this professionalism business is that it's all a charade, something that gives us the reassuring illusion of order. Your doctor could be the nuttiest nutbar that ever lived but as long as he wears the right coat and makes the right moves, everything's fine, everything is in order, you can trust him.

  2. #32
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    The thing I find most amusing about this professionalism business is that it's all a charade, something that gives us the reassuring illusion of order. Your doctor could be the nuttiest nutbar that ever lived but as long as he wears the right coat and makes the right moves, everything's fine, everything is in order, you can trust him.
    Well people are irrational... and it's the irrationality that makes the world go round.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  3. #33
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    The thing I find most amusing about this professionalism business is that it's all a charade, something that gives us the reassuring illusion of order. Your doctor could be the nuttiest nutbar that ever lived but as long as he wears the right coat and makes the right moves, everything's fine, everything is in order, you can trust him.
    As much as I dislike biases, I think this makes absolute sense.

    Signalling tends to be effective. Not as effective as "having their entire history of medical expertise, cross referenced, measured against peers, and distilled to your particular condition with a bayesian calculation to derive your optimal choice", perhaps, but more efficient.

    For example: white coat = doctor = experience/education, plus as a professional designation = oversight body, etc.

  4. #34
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    The thing I find most amusing about this professionalism business is that it's all a charade, something that gives us the reassuring illusion of order. Your doctor could be the nuttiest nutbar that ever lived but as long as he wears the right coat and makes the right moves, everything's fine, everything is in order, you can trust him.
    Yeah, to some extent that's true but if the person isn't who they represent themselves to be eventually there will be cracks in the facade.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  5. #35
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    As much as I dislike biases, I think this makes absolute sense.

    Signalling tends to be effective. Not as effective as "having their entire history of medical expertise, cross referenced, measured against peers, and distilled to your particular condition with a bayesian calculation to derive your optimal choice", perhaps, but more efficient.

    For example: white coat = doctor = experience/education, plus as a professional designation = oversight body, etc.
    Is it really all that effective? A coat doesn't make the man, there are many examples where "professionals" behind the scenes are far from professional.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Yeah, to some extent that's true but if the person isn't who they represent themselves to be eventually there will be cracks in the facade.
    So in regards to the OP, which would you prefer, someone who is upfront and honest about who they are and how they express themselves or someone who simply knows how to "play the part"?

  6. #36
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    Is it really all that effective? A coat doesn't make the man, there are many examples where "professionals" behind the scenes are far from professional.
    Yes, it is that effective. The only reason she can "be herself" is because she is going to be a part of a profession where they have already established their professionalism - that is, a group made up of "playing the part" and being committed to "that part".

    So in regards to the OP, which would you prefer, someone who is upfront and honest about who they are and how they express themselves or someone who simply knows how to "play the part"?
    False dilemma. What I want is the person who knows how to help me to demonstrate they can help me. Being "themselves" is not going to help me identify that they can help me. If they can put away their own personal need to "be themselves" and show "I'm able and willing to help you", then I definitely want the "I'm able and willing to help you".

    I'm not against her doing it, exactly, but I don't think this is where the "world is unfair and stupid". It's a personal choice that deals with her needs. So the signal tells me exactly what I need, and it does it accurately.

  7. #37
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'm not against her doing it, exactly, but I don't think this is where the "world is unfair and stupid". It's a personal choice that deals with her needs. So the signal tells me exactly what I need, and it does it accurately.
    What exactly does it tell us? Is the Not2b4got uh... whatshername really a different person with or without pigtails? Pigtails say nothing about her ability to do the job, she could listen to this thread and not wear them and all of a sudden she is better at her job?

    Perhaps a world where we take each person as they come and withold judgement untill we really know them is impractical and idealistic, I just feel that by using these (Te?) shortcuts we don't do justice to individuals as people.

  8. #38
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    What exactly does it tell us?
    Effectively, that she won't dress up for an interview.

    That's what signaling does. It does not mean she is better or worse individually, but it does mean that people with the underlying cause are going to be worse. And since I do not know if she is good, better|worse judgment is going to be based on what I can discern.

    (The analogy works well, as I am deciding if I should hire her.)

  9. #39
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Effectively, that she won't dress up for an interview.
    ...and what does that tell us (other than the fact that she takes advice from internet forums)?

  10. #40
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinlan View Post
    So in regards to the OP, which would you prefer, someone who is upfront and honest about who they are and how they express themselves or someone who simply knows how to "play the part"?
    pt mostly answered it for the professional setting. When I first read the OP, Not2bforgot10 came off to me as more intent on self-expression than helping the patient in the therapist office. It's not about her...if she knows that several facial piercings and multicolored hair or whatever is going to turn off her clients then I'd think if she's truly there for them and not for herself she'd change her outward appearance.

    There are so many venues available for self-expression so to me the question is when and where to express myself, not should if it be done at all. What's practical for your place of employment? I go to the hair salon and all the stylists have funky hair colors and styles and that's totally alright. My job is pretty casual so jeans and suits aren't out of place, but we still have a dress code. If someone comes in like they're about to get on a pole, that's totally out of place. At that point it's not about self-expression to me, it's just I'm going to do what I want to do regardless of anyone else.

    Yes, I do prefer someone who's upfront about themselves but it's not like someone who's in a suit isn't being upfront about themselves either. This also kind of relates to why I started the maturity thread, because I think a big part of being a mature person is seeing yourself as others see you and realizing the ramifications (positive or negative) of your actions.

    Personally, I can related a lot to what the OP says. I have dreadlocks in my hair and my parents swear up and down that it's going to harm my career. Absolutely nothing anyone can say would make me change my hair. So I do understand those non-negligible parts of yourself that people either have to take or leave. If my hair stops me from getting a job then that's something I'm prepared to deal with and maybe that's not where I want to work.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

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