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  1. #11
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    In terms of poor black communities as a specific subset of the problem, the Malcolm X autobiography is unlikely to provide many answers; the stagnation of class mobility among black Americans and the breakdown of the black family can be traced to the early seventies.
    And beyond!
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  2. #12
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Which parents, what sub-culture are those?
    It differs according to whichever poor "community" is being considered, though the rejection of (not to be confused with exclusion from) mainstream culture combined with the devaluation of academic achievement, marital fidelity, reading, and the ability to postpone gratification for future rewards are prime characteristics of such parental inputs/sub-cultures.

  3. #13
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    It differs according to whichever poor "community" is being considered, though the rejection of (not to be confused with exclusion from) mainstream culture combined with the devaluation of academic achievement, marital fidelity, reading, and the ability to postpone gratification for future rewards are prime characteristics of such parental inputs/sub-cultures.
    Oh, you're talking about Americans.

    Haha. Just kidding.

    You basically just said that it depends upon which parents and subcultures you're talking about.

    Yeah. That's what I'm asking you.
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  4. #14
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    And beyond!
    No; the preponderance of one-parent families and out of wedlock births is a recent thing (the social damage caused by slavery had been largely overcome before that, no thanks to the dominant white population). As for economic mobility, it stagnated in the early seventies after steadily rising throughout the latter stage of the Jim Crow era. The issue is not nearly so cut-and-dry as you seem to percieve it, and the Malcolm X book won't provide any answers to such modern developments.

    Edit: This is not to say that an equal percentage of black families were part of the middle and upper classes (This WAS during segregation, which took place in the context of deep-seated societal racism, after all), merely that the percentage was steadily rising (at a faster rate than the white population if I remember correctly, but that's really to be expected, similar to successful developing countries having faster annual economic growth than rich countries) before the seventies
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 01-31-2009 at 01:20 AM. Reason: self evident

  5. #15
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    You basically just said that it depends upon which parents and subcultures you're talking about.

    Yeah. That's what I'm asking you.
    Well, again in terms of the poor black community (Malcolm X would not be able to tell you much about poor spanish-speaking or predominantly white trailor-park communities) stigmatizing students who love learning and perform well in school as "acting white" while calling students who speak eloquently and identify with the norms and practices of the mainstream culture as "oreos" is not exactly conducive to a successful life.

  6. #16
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No; the preponderance of one-parent families and out of wedlock births is a recent thing (the social damage caused by slavery had been largely overcome before that, no thanks to the dominant white population). As for economic mobility, it stagnated in the early seventies after steadily rising throughout the latter stage of the Jim Crow era. The issue is not nearly so cut-and-dry as you seem to percieve it, and the Malcolm X book won't provide any answers to such modern developments.
    This excerpt is about when he moved to the neighborhood of Roxbury in Boston:

    So I went gawking around the neighborhood--the Waumbeck and Homboldt Avenue Hill section of Roxbury, which is something like Harlem's Sugar Hill, where I'd later live. I saw those Roxbury Negroes acting and living differently from any black people I'd ever dreamed of in my life. This was the snooty black neighborhood; they called themselves the "Four Hundred," and looked down their noses at the at the Negroes of the black ghetto, or so-called "town" section where Mary, my other half-sister, lived.

    What I thought I was seeing there in Roxbury were high-class, educated, important Negroes, living well, working in big jobs and positions. Their quiet homes sat back in their mowed yards.[...]

    I'd guess that eight out of ten of the Hill Negroes of Roxbury, despite the impressive-sounding job titles they affected, actually worked as menials and servants. "He's in banking," or "He's in securities." It sounded as though they were discussing a Rockefeller or a Mellon--and not some gray-headed, dignity-posturing bank janitor, or bond-house messenger. "I'm with an old family" was the euphemism used to dignify the professions of white folks' cooks and maids who talked so affectedly among their own kind in Roxbury that you couldn't even understand them.
    Please discuss how African-Americans have collectively climbed the social ladder since 1941.
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  7. #17
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Well, again in terms of the poor black community (Malcolm X would not be able to tell you much about poor spanish-speaking or predominantly white trailor-park communities) stigmatizing students who love learning and perform well in school as "acting white" while calling students who speak eloquently and identify with the norms and practices of the mainstream culture as "oreos" is not exactly conducive to a successful life.
    Have you read the book?
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  8. #18
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    Have you read the book?
    No; since I was addressing developments which occurred after Malcolm X was assassinated, that doesn't really matter. If he actually did have something relevant to say about poor spanish-speaking (not nearly as many back then) or white trailer-park communities, what was it? If his cultural comments were relevant, what were they?

  9. #19
    Guerilla Urbanist Brendan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No; since I was addressing developments which occurred after Malcolm X was assassinated, that doesn't really matter. If he actually did have something relevant to say about poor spanish-speaking (not nearly as many back then) or white trailer-park communities, what was it? If his cultural comments were relevant, what were they?
    He speaks of "crimes of the white man" in general, throughout history. Not just against blacks since the Civil War.

    Maybe you should read the book...
    There is no such thing as separation from God.

  10. #20
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    He speaks of "crimes of the white man" in general, throughout history. Not just against blacks since the Civil War.

    Maybe you should read the book...
    What will he have to say that I (probably) don't already know? Besides, I would take his perspective with a grain of salt if I were you; for instance, he seems to have somehow overlooked the historical record of the Muslim slave trade while demonizing Christianity as a religion of black oppression. One of these days I might get around to reading his book, but its not exactly a priority for me.

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