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  1. #61
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Funny... I would have thought INTJ will be more robot-like and be less concern about aesthetics than INFJ.

    Is cursive the most efficient means of writing on paper? You're used to what you're used to. I think over time each of us comes to our own form of letters. I have to disagree that a computer and keyboard should replace pen and paper though. The active movement of a pen against a page is very useful in learning. The more movement/more active you are in studying something, the better you retain it. To think the next generation will not be able to freely recall letters and words but must instead rely on recognizing keys on the keyboard... What happens if you're stranded without technology? It's not a pleasant thought. You can't even doodle a map on the ground with a stick for god's sake! That's worse than a helpless chick.

    The cycle to me always moves forward... and the most adaptive ideas/technology/people move forward with it. I agree with that. I just think it might be better if you consider the full ramification of what you're suggesting first.

    Survival of the fittest... one person can use a pen and write, the other needs to have a computer, keyboard & printer... it seems rather obvious to me.
    Well, what about people who can do both? Are the advantages of handwriting so great that people should be pressured to handwrite everything instead of typing it? I just think it's ridiculous to say that people should be compelled to handwrite whether they want to or not because of some esoteric thing they'll gain from it.

    I just want to voice my disagreement with the people who would assert that what might be lost here negates any advantages that can be had from having the option of typing things up, and that that option should thus be taken away in many situations.

  2. #62
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    I'm still bitter from teachers in the 3rd grade trying to get me to write in cursive, and I begrudgingly half-learned it enough to get by. I was/am perfectly fine with print.

    I say we teach kids basic handwriting then we get those little fingers on the keyboard.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I think that's the common sense approach that we will be taking, aj. If there are any schools left to teach basic skills in the future.

    I see little self-determination in the youngest generation to do anything which requires self-discipline and patience. The world is moving too fast now.

    An aside. I was watching a fascinating video last night on Utube. It was probably about forty minutes long and the author was requesting comments. One of the comments was a complaint about someone feeling offended that they were asked to take precious time to watch the video! Heh.

    Well, at least they had time to type a complaint.

    It will be interestng to see how we can communicate more efficiently without losing some of our useful human traits. A challenge for you all!

    You Twenties and Thirties are going to have your hands full convincing your young to apply themselves.

    That last sentence is secretly known as The Curse of the Ancients.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  4. #64
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I think that's the common sense approach that we will be taking, aj. If there are any schools left to teach basic skills in the future.
    It won't be long until computer skills become the new basics.

  5. #65
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, what about people who can do both? Are the advantages of handwriting so great that people should be pressured to handwrite everything instead of typing it? I just think it's ridiculous to say that people should be compelled to handwrite whether they want to or not because of some esoteric thing they'll gain from it.

    I just want to voice my disagreement with the people who would assert that what might be lost here negates any advantages that can be had from having the option of typing things up, and that that option should thus be taken away in many situations.
    Strawman. Who's compelled to handwrite anything these days? Elementary school doesn't count, they make you handwrite then so you can learn how...then when you're older you can choose for yourself, as all of us have.

    Handwriting is a useful skill to have for when you have no computer and you need to write quickly (eg taking rapid notes while a prof rambles on quickly, if you aren't fortunate enough to have a reliable laptop). Cursive is much faster than printing, assuming you're trying to write legibly and you're reasonably proficient at both. I would be at a huge disadvantage trying to take notes now if I hadn't been forced as a child to learn writing. (even though I type my notes later, my laptop keeps dying so I can't rely on it and sometimes have to write)

    At my university you aren't allowed to handwrite anything (other than exams/etc obviously). Easier to read typing.
    -end of thread-

  6. #66
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I will look forward to the day when the youth of today lament the loss of text speak, "In my day we wrote with a beautiful mixture of letters and numbers, kids these days with their telepathic brain implants wouldn't know their rs frm thr Lb0s..."

  7. #67
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    *sigh* why is it that people are so against doing something more efficiently?

    People will learn to print quicker by adapting it to thier own means if that's all they learned to do by hand- my printing is A LOT faster than my cursive ever was. People are adaptable, that's what they do! Cursive was merely somebody else's version of quick printing anyways- if everyone's too much of an idiot to come up with something that works for them they kind of deserve to fall behind in class

    Cursive isn't the same as architecture and art necissarily- it's more of a functional thing by purpose than an artistic thing- if you say that cursive is an art, then print is an art anyways and there's nothing to be concerned with! Those who are interested in the "art" of cursive handwriting can study it just like people study painting and calligraphy.

    Just because some people think that it's nice doesn't mean that its necissarily more practical, efficient or better
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  8. #68
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, what about people who can do both? Are the advantages of handwriting so great that people should be pressured to handwrite everything instead of typing it? I just think it's ridiculous to say that people should be compelled to handwrite whether they want to or not because of some esoteric thing they'll gain from it.

    I just want to voice my disagreement with the people who would assert that what might be lost here negates any advantages that can be had from having the option of typing things up, and that that option should thus be taken away in many situations.
    Understood your view point. I just see so many cases in which handwriting is quicker than typing. If it's only a brief note... page or two... it's easier writing it out in a notebook than to open up the computer, type it up and print it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Strawman. Who's compelled to handwrite anything these days? Elementary school doesn't count, they make you handwrite then so you can learn how...then when you're older you can choose for yourself, as all of us have.

    Handwriting is a useful skill to have for when you have no computer and you need to write quickly (eg taking rapid notes while a prof rambles on quickly, if you aren't fortunate enough to have a reliable laptop). Cursive is much faster than printing, assuming you're trying to write legibly and you're reasonably proficient at both. I would be at a huge disadvantage trying to take notes now if I hadn't been forced as a child to learn writing. (even though I type my notes later, my laptop keeps dying so I can't rely on it and sometimes have to write)
    Hah... here's where computer note taking in class fails for me. My undergrad experience with science & mathematics lecture is that profs frequently use diagrams, figures and equations in lectures. Non of these are easily imported into a document. Hand drawing them on paper and putting annotations on the side is so much easier.

    However due to the nature of the process, my writing is a half and half hybrid of cursive and print. Legible for myself... questionable for others.

    [quote]
    At my university you aren't allowed to handwrite anything (other than exams/etc obviously). Easier to read typing.[/QUOT]

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    *sigh* why is it that people are so against doing something more efficiently?
    I think we should divide up the topic as two separate streams which they clearly are...

    1. efficiency for rapid note taking
    In this case, the form of the writing doesn't matter... then yes, print, write cursive... come up with your own short hand... type... whatever floats your boat. The bottom-line has always been getting it done quickly but still maintaining legibility.

    In this case is there a reason to teach kids to handwrite? Only to show them this style is an option. However unless you learned it well, you can't compare it to another process... Just like for my father who've never really practiced keyboarding... He types with 3 fingers... which means he writes faster than he types. Can you just say then typing on a computer is inefficient in this case? No, because you need to learn how to do it first before you can select the method that works best for you. That's why I think kids should be taught. As to the form... whether it's the "classical" cursive style or the so call "italics" I couldn't care less.

    2. Cursive writing as artistic form
    Print lettering... or what they call on serif and san serif fonts (typography) can be an art form. For example, the weight of the characters, kerning, line height, white space... BUT you wouldn't know to appreciate it, unless you pay attention to the details. Should we not teach art appreciation to kids? Should we not have them practice hand/eye coordination in terms of precise pen movement? I think we should...

    The Chinese has always stressed upon "penmanship"... writing with ink and brush. It's not just for "neat" writing... there's also the stress on controlled movement of the brush, applying the correct amount of force in a particular way to achieve the stroke. A balance in everything. The idea of teaching brush writing was to extend it to life in general. As a kid, I hated it all because I was horrible at it. But now that I look back at it, I definitely see why we were taught.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  9. #69
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    my point- if it's an art why not teach it in art class instead of in normal class, where you're taking time away from learning other stuff too? (there's already insufficient time to teach all that's required to be taught in a lot of elementary school classes)
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  10. #70
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I used to exchange letters with my best friend all the time from across the country. The thing about letters is that you know that it took quite a bit of effort for them to do it, and they did it because it was important to them, so it's impressive.

    And I don't have a cell phone. I have a group of friends that I meet with several times a week at the beach about a half an hour before sunset. No one ever confirms via communication that the others will be there... it's just a tradition, and everyone's always there. And you really build a sense of respect for and trust in someone when they prove to be that dependable.

    I am just a bit of a romantic, and I find the idea of doing social things the old fashioned way, or the less easy way to be very attractive.

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