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  1. #51
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Crappy handwriting. What part of the body was he writing with, anyway?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #52
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Crappy handwriting. What part of the body was he writing with, anyway?
    Haha. I couldn't make out the first word after the "O!" Can you?

  3. #53
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I think you've missed the point, Athenian. Eldanen and Peguy both talk about retaining both aspects of communication.
    In that case, I'm less concerned.
    You are saying that, since you prefer one over the other, one should be eliminated. This attitude is self-centered and indicates a lack of thought on your part about the value that some things have.
    I might have been arguing that because I felt that they were suggesting that people should be dissuaded from using computers instead of handwriting documents, regardless of what worked better or the person's preference, all because of the notion that something might be lost or that it had a redeeming quality.
    It is an error of each generation to want to discard the old because their way works better. The value lies in keeping some and changing some, not throwing the baby out with the bath water for personal preference. There is a reason, whether you can fathom it or not, why some things have been a tradition for thousands of years. And the reason is not technology.
    Slavery and dictatorship has been a tradition in some places for thousands of years. As was using leeches to draw blood. Some traditions have a purpose (like laws against murder and theft), but some of them just shouldn't be kept.
    It's incredible to me to hear you say that something doesn't make sense to you so the culture shouldn't have it. Amazing. Just think - if certain personality types ruled supreme you may not even have a computer with that attitude.
    I didn't say the culture shouldn't have it, I meant that people shouldn't be forced to write things instead of typing just because of tradition. It should still be an option, and should definitely be preserved as an art form.
    And are you naive enough to imagine that you will always have a computer or that it will always work? You've lived a very priveleged life, if so.

    The cultures which survive our coming crises will be the ones accustomed to doing manual labor for their needs. High tech people won't have a clue how to find something to put in a sandwich!

    We need a little of everything.
    The way your mind works is infuriating. "We will have an upcoming crisis, and unless you preserve all these little things that have a meaning that can't be explained, there's no hope. And how dare you ever question them, you calculating, shortsighted person with no sense of balance and appreciation."

    At the moment, no I'm not that naive. That's why I can print. The other reason I print is because I figure that if I have to write something down on paper, I want to make sure it's as legible as possible, and print tends to be more legible than cursive.

    I can make a sandwich. I know what food looks like. I've done it before. I've even cooked. I never said we should do away with cooking, but I don't think we should shut down fast food or limit fast food and compel people to go back to cooking.

    Manual labor? If that's the future, I'm not sure I want to see it.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    You're angry right now.

    Not to get upset. You will see many changes if you do live for a while.

    Right now it sounds as though your world is small and that you have things designed to suit your personal needs. That is the safe life of youth who have people helping them to become self-sufficient.

    It's a guarantee that that will change many times throughout your life and your world view will change. What that will become depends on your attitude and what you learn about other people's needs.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #55
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    You're angry right now.

    Not to get upset. You will see many changes if you do live for a while.

    Right now it sounds as though your world is small and that you have things designed to suit your personal needs. That is the safe life of youth who have people helping them to become self-sufficient.

    It's a guarantee that that will change many times throughout your life and your world view will change. What that will become depends on your attitude and what you learn about other people's needs.
    I'm sick of your self-righteousness. It's so unreasoned and insistent on the meaning of unyielding cycles and imprints that were never chosen, that strip away a person's humanity and make them nothing but a stupid animal.

    You've created a world in which choice means nothing, in which there are no real choices but inevitable cycles which one can only fight painfully or go along with peacefully, yet still end up in the same place. I don't like your world, and I want out of it.

  6. #56
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    It's cuz we have no real control, Athenian. You being in "my world" - heh - is an illusion. As much so as I being in, ahem, "yours."

    You're going to have to suck it up - the world you've invented in your mind for yourself. Just like everybody does. Can't run from our own perceptions, you know. But we can change them. With some personal discomfort and inconvenience. Sigh.

    I've created my own personal space where I am contented. It took me years to get out of my imaginary world where I was being controlled by the forces of fate and irritating people. The way I did that was to stop letting myself feel like people had control over my happiness.

    I hope you can figure out how to do the same. Funny thing, life. The ancient and disposable cliche is "It's what YOU make it."
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #57
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    'scuse, Eldanen. Got all Existential on you here!
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #58
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm sick of your self-righteousness. It's so unreasoned and insistent on the meaning of unyielding cycles and imprints that were never chosen, that strip away a person's humanity and make them nothing but a stupid animal.

    You've created a world in which choice means nothing, in which there are no real choices but inevitable cycles which one can only fight painfully or go along with peacefully, yet still end up in the same place. I don't like your world, and I want out of it.
    Actually I think Anja is being pretty reasonable and even-keeled. I guess I could see how it could come across as patronizing, but at the same time, I think you have to account for age, and wisdom/experience gained over time. That counts for a lot, I think.

    I do think there are cycles. History demonstrates that pretty clearly.

    I don't think 'her world' implies lack of choice. Choice is quite important and is key to everything, really. But the world will change, and often unpredictable things happen. I think that's all she was trying to say.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #59
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Just because writing things by hand has aesthetic value and develops a skill that can best be appreciated over time, it's justified to push to keep it as a primary way of composing documents? For the purposes of most kind of writing, I disagree.

    Your sense of aesthetics has blinded you, I suppose. You're one of them now. I'm disappointed.
    Funny... I would have thought INTJ will be more robot-like and be less concern about aesthetics than INFJ.

    Is cursive the most efficient means of writing on paper? You're used to what you're used to. I think over time each of us comes to our own form of letters. I have to disagree that a computer and keyboard should replace pen and paper though. The active movement of a pen against a page is very useful in learning. The more movement/more active you are in studying something, the better you retain it. To think the next generation will not be able to freely recall letters and words but must instead rely on recognizing keys on the keyboard... What happens if you're stranded without technology? It's not a pleasant thought. You can't even doodle a map on the ground with a stick for god's sake! That's worse than a helpless chick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm sick of your self-righteousness. It's so unreasoned and insistent on the meaning of unyielding cycles and imprints that were never chosen, that strip away a person's humanity and make them nothing but a stupid animal.

    You've created a world in which choice means nothing, in which there are no real choices but inevitable cycles which one can only fight painfully or go along with peacefully, yet still end up in the same place. I don't like your world, and I want out of it.
    The cycle to me always moves forward... and the most adaptive ideas/technology/people move forward with it. I agree with that. I just think it might be better if you consider the full ramification of what you're suggesting first.

    Survival of the fittest... one person can use a pen and write, the other needs to have a computer, keyboard & printer... it seems rather obvious to me.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  10. #60
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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