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Why do English teachers suck so vigorously?

A Schnitzel

WTF is this dude saying?
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Not hysterics. You didn't read my tone right. I was wondering if you were actually serious.
So you were actually questioning whether I was delusional? That would change it from hysterics to an insult.

How about you give an example of a great work of literature that does not have a strong relation to history or politics? This feels like I'm shadow-boxing with hypotheticals.

Take a look at "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift. While it is tied very heavily to the socioeconomic conditions of the 18th century, it is only one aspect of a larger puzzle. That being universal themes such as objectivity versus subjectivity and human worth. More to the point, I can't see how an English department could be politically biased on this work, or give subjective grades depending on a persons political stance.
 
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So you were actually questioning whether I was delusional? That would change it from hysterics to an insult.
Your point being that I should've been more polite in my phrasing?

Take a look at "A Modest Proposal" by Jonathan Swift. While it is tied very heavily to the socioeconomic conditions of the 18th century, it is only one aspect of a larger puzzle. That being universal themes such as objectivity versus subjectivity and human worth. More to the point, I can't see how an English department could be politically biased on this work, or give subjective grades depending on a persons political stance.

Your question was not "what does personal politics have to do with subjectively grading literature papers?" - your exact question was "what does literature have to do with politics?" which, as several people including myself have pointed out, is everything.

If you look back in the thread, you will find that I am not the only person who took what you said in that context.

It could be a misunderstanding.
 

A Schnitzel

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Your question was not "what does personal politics have to do with subjectively grading literature papers?" - your exact question was "what does literature have to do with politics?" which, as several people including myself have pointed out, is everything.

If you look back in the thread, you will find that I am not the only person who took what you said in that context.

It could be a misunderstanding.

Actually my question was specifically related to Orangey's post, which I quoted. Taking it out of context ruins the point. Of course politics is objectively related to literature but what she was talking about was subjective politics in a department relating to previous works of art, which I find downright silly.
 

FDG

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Would you rather I go the American way and demand mediocrity?

While I would say that language is a broad subject, there are definitely skills and categories within the subject that are narrowly defined and more easily assessed.

Yes, well, some are, but when we move to an upper level (say, over correct syntax and grammar) it's harder to reach an agreement on the way the skill manifests itself. What I may find easily comprehensible, another person might not (that's also something that personality theory makes more understandable).

Do you dislike the subjectivity of assessment? Do you prefer grading that has a clearly defined right and wrong answer?

Generally, yes. Perhaps it's a problem of mine, but I have difficulty accepting a bad grade because the teacher thinks that "the assigned them has not been strictly respected" or that "this was not what I meant you to write about".
 

Eileen

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Are they inextricable, or this how the system is currently set up?

One can analyze the theme of a literary work without relating it to ideas that are politically oriented.

Yes - this is New Criticism, or "close reading." I think it's valuable, though I think that analyzing in light of politics and history probably yields something even more valuable. You can do a lot with a text - and as an English teacher, the better a class I have, the more I can guide students in applying a variety of criticisms to literature. In high school, though, the focus tends to be on close reading.
 

Jack Flak

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Yes - this is New Criticism, or "close reading." I think it's valuable, though I think that analyzing in light of politics and history probably yields something even more valuable. You can do a lot with a text - and as an English teacher, the better a class I have, the more I can guide students in applying a variety of criticisms to literature. In high school, though, the focus tends to be on close reading.
What it normally results in is the misguided justification and proliferation of idealistic, ivory-tower-academian hokum.

So I'm against it.
 

Anja

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What it normally results in is the misguided justification and proliferation of idealistic, ivory-tower-academian hokum.

So I'm against it.

Let me offer a thought about the difference here between INFP and INTP.

I'm wondering if what you call "ivory tower" academics results from a narrow focus. When one enters their field of concentration certainly one wants to seek what is right and what is wrong in that area. Become an expert, so to speak.

It may be typical for a Tee to want one "correct" focus and therefor adopt an attitude that the conclusions they come to would be the only correct ones.

But if an early focus in education is on a larger picture of possibilities for "correct" and "incorrect" views, then a student is being taught what a good teacher seeks to teach him. Not a set group of facts (talking the arts here) but rather how to learn "how to learn" in the way best suited for his personality type.
 

Jack Flak

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That's not it, Anja. It's that I've been through the ed system and am a keen perceiver, and it's about the farthest thing from objective in the whole world.

Liberal bias to the max.
 

Anja

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I think you are correct in that. I've seen a political agenda at work in higher education.

I still see an opportunity to learn through teachers who aren't pushing their personal issues.

Not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I've noticed, having been a member of the counter-culture generation, that the best way to influence an established institution is from within rather than rejecting it from without.

Certainly not every teacher fits your description.
 

Anja

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I'd like to add that a person can learn through a teacher who is pushing his personal agendas as well.

The system has failed us, not English teachers!
 

Jack Flak

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I think you are correct in that. I've seen a political agenda at work in higher education.

I still see an opportunity to learn through teachers who aren't pushing their personal issues.

Not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I've noticed, having been a member of the counter-culture generation, that the best way to influence an established institution is from within rather than rejecting it from without.

Certainly not every teacher fits your description.
No, but most do in my experience. That's more of a political problem though, as it spreads doctrines which aren't necessarily true.

My real problem is with the almost entirely subjective judging of English instructors. I think the system should be overhauled so that what's said doesn't matter, only structure does.

As I've mentioned before (Maybe in this thread), It's a very painful experience for me to dumb myself down to get a good grade when I'd rather write something the teacher wouldn't even understand.
 

Anja

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I understand now what you are saying.

And yes, I agree, that subject matter shouldn't count as much as technique. However, given the nature of youthful students these days, I can see a mature teaching getting tired of slogging through papers which attempt to convince him that any chosen piece of current social nonsense is important. Perhaps they DON'T want to hear what a student has to say if its something they aren't interested in. Could it be?

College freshmen love to shock (disengenuously.) Seems they also hate to bend themselves to structure. A true learner will eventually get into a place where he can "follow the rules" while still learning how to think for himself. Good teachers recognize this and can help in the process.

Good writing requires self-discipline and self-discipline is best reinforced, in my opinion, by being first applied by someone else. There's entirely too much self-centeredness in our current youth. And a desire to have it one's own way or mope about bored and disillusioned. They say things like, "This is dumb." and miss what is being offered.

Yes, I guess the question would be, "Why bother to pay someone to teach you if you are going to reject their information because of their particular quirks?" There is a way to remain openminded about their thit and still learn. And it's a useful thing to learn. Good way to learn it.

Actually, the most rigid teachers I've had, as far as doctrine goes, have been in the Feminist classes. Some of what I "learned" was pretty horrendous. But it seems to me that that would be the nature of the beast. I went, listened and figured out what information I needed.
 

Orangey

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Actually my question was specifically related to Orangey's post, which I quoted. Taking it out of context ruins the point. Of course politics is objectively related to literature but what she was talking about was subjective politics in a department relating to previous works of art, which I find downright silly.

My post wasn't based on my opinion. It is based on the fact that literary theories are extremely political in the methods many prescribe for interpreting texts (e.g., deconstruction, feminist literary criticism, anything to do with Lacan, the list is endless) and if you've ever actually taken a university level literature course beyond the introductory requirements, you'd know this. So despite how "silly" you may find it, it is a fact.

My point was that, if you are already predisposed to disagree with the basic assumptions upon which those types of theories rest, and which the instructor is most likely sympathetic to (otherwise they wouldn't be teaching it), then you're not going to have a very high opinion of the subject matter. And many of those theories rest on assumptions that people here would probably label as "extremely liberal/socialist/Marxist (literally)/communist." Personally, having studied rhetoric, I am sick of that type of theory. Luckily, my field has other branches that are often unrelated to that stuff, so I'm not stuck with it like I would be if I studied English proper.

But literary interpretation is basically all about applying new, politically inspired theories to old texts.
 

Brendan

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Seriously, why? Why is every English teacher I've EVER encountered a weird, bitchy, crazy, angry, off the handle, marbles missing, vindictive, egotistical, liberal, old, pruney woman? I just don't understand. Why are they all like this!?
Because they're well read.
 

King sns

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Seriously, why? Why is every English teacher I've EVER encountered a weird, bitchy, crazy, angry, off the handle, marbles missing, vindictive, egotistical, liberal, old, pruney woman? I just don't understand. Why are they all like this!? Surely there must be a decent person teaching this freaking subject SOMEWHERE!


Because they're teaching a stupid subject to stupid, arrogant, out-of-control, pissed-off, uninterested, immature, obnoxious little punks?
 

King sns

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I wasn't disagreeing with you're whole sentence, just the part about English being a stupid subject.

ahh.. I was still being a wise-ass.
I do think that being an English teacher would be an awful job to have though.
 
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