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  1. #11
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    If it was my child, I would see if the school could provide him with tutoring. I have a perfectionistic ENFJ son who gives up when he becomes overwhelmed, so I know what a brick wall that can be. He needs help from the outside, someone skilled in dealing with this situation.

  2. #12
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I agree with Edahn, but I am kind of split... Having done a fair bit of tutoring, and watching my mom (ex-teacher) do it, I also know that there is an inflexion point where skills that were not gained in the past catch up with you. I don't know if that is the case, but it seems familiar to my rants a long while back.

    For my brother, I had to do more than just proof his work, I had to work it through from the start - how to organise, how to write, etc. These skills are actually very easy to learn... but most people never have someone sit down and teach it to them.
    *nods* That is exactly what's happening. The basic foundation isn't there. I guess I just needed to rant mostly to get the frustration out.

    Wish I have more time. To sit down and go over everything from scratch... not only on my part but also his. Not much time left in the week after factoring in the time he needs to finish his class assignments.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Has he been tested for learning disabilities?
    Not that I'm aware of. He might be borderline ADHD or aspie? Doesn't get along with people too well. Is there anything that can be done at this stage though? He's in his senior year in high school already.

    Quote Originally Posted by StoryOfMyLife View Post
    Encourage him as much as you can. I agree, it does sound like he's trying, but it must be frustrating to him that he hasn't found some kind of comfortable, middle-ground of focus. Both of my younger brothers are two states away from me, but they've got their problems as well-- my middle brother is so smart, but lazy and refuses to just apply himself. My younger brother is smart, lazy, and just doesn't care, or doesn't know where to start when it comes to certain classes. The only thing I can do in my position is listen to what it is that frustrates them, offer suggestions, and of course be supportive and encouraging. Sometimes all it takes is a bit of motivation and knowing that someone isn't giving up even if they want to.

    Maybe your brother needs that, along with the help of finding what plays his strengths when it comes to his school work. I'm kind of fond of that recording himself narrating idea- that just might work. He might not feel so overwhelmed by everybody pressuring him to do better if he's reminded that he can do it, but he needs to be doing this for himself, not for everybody else.
    The motivational factor is certainly something I can do. Agree with you that he needs to want to work at it himself or else it's not going to work. It just seems like a lot of "sitting around" when I told him if he has problems he should come and ask me. I guess he's under the impression that I'm busy and my help is worse than no help at all. Not sure how to fix that.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTJMom View Post
    If it was my child, I would see if the school could provide him with tutoring. I have a perfectionistic ENFJ son who gives up when he becomes overwhelmed, so I know what a brick wall that can be. He needs help from the outside, someone skilled in dealing with this situation.
    He currently has tutors. A math class he attends every Saturday and another tutor that comes by our house on Sunday to help him with English, math or whatever else he has problems with. None of these are very effective. They also eat into his spare time.

    Thank you everybody for you input. Much appreciate them.

  3. #13
    No me digas, che! Recoleta's Avatar
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    Ok, as a literacy teacher, this is what I would do for his English paper if you feel the foundation is not there. First of all, what kind of paper is he writing: research/informational, persuasive, fiction, etc? This does make a difference. If his basic problem is with organization, I'd try to explain and use a graphic organizer with him. Here's a good site that has all kinds: General - Graphic Organizers

    Since he's in high school, I'd go with the "topic-6 ideas" for starters...and maybe go to the "topic 4 supporting/8 sub." if more details are needed. Go paragraph by paragraph with these organizers. Stick the main idea of the paragraph in the middle, and add supporting details on the outside bubbles -- they don't even have to be in complete sentences to fill out the organizer...just brainstorming ideas that go along with the main topic.

    From there, step back and look at what you have. Pretend that the person you are writing the paper for is a complete idiot, so you have to explain everything from the very beginning (i.e., you have to define things before you can describe them or provide an opinion.) Or in other words, start with general, and then move to specifics. Number the bubbles logically so that you think about the sequence of things you want to write to your audience.

    I really like using graphic organizers with my students because the bubbles create the sentences for you. If you fill out the "topic-6-ideas" organizer the 6 outside bubbles will become 6 sentences in your paragraph. All the information you need is on that one sheet in front of you. There's no shuffling though papers nor too much info to look at all at once, and also this way students are more likely to summarize in their own words rather than be tempted to plagiarize.

  4. #14
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I can relate to your brother. I suck at organizing thoughts for a paper, I know how theoretically but I can't do it. Everytime I think it's organized I always get the feedback that it needs to be organized better. I'm also stubborn, even if I'm drowing and their's no way out without someone's help I'll struggle and refuse any help someone tries to give me. Trust me if he's like me he's also extremely frustrated with himself and anyone trying to help is reminder how incompetent he is. Or maybe that's not the case but that's how I am you can keep making suggestions but all I'll hear is you are a fucking moron give up now and do us all a favor.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  5. #15
    Senior Member edcoaching's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I agree with Edahn, but I am kind of split... Having done a fair bit of tutoring, and watching my mom (ex-teacher) do it, I also know that there is an inflexion point where skills that were not gained in the past catch up with you. I don't know if that is the case, but it seems familiar to my rants a long while back.

    For my brother, I had to do more than just proof his work, I had to work it through from the start - how to organise, how to write, etc. These skills are actually very easy to learn... but most people never have someone sit down and teach it to them.

    But Edahn is also right about the whole defeated thing. That's what started my brother's spiral, and he never really recovered. And worse, it sounds like your brother is actually trying, and being defeated. However, at least he is trying. You can work with that. It just depends on if you *can* work with him, rant aside.
    My approach might be, "I'll bail you out on this one, but the next assignment we do together from the start." Then you can influence focusing before beginning, finding only the relevant facts for a 1-page paper, finding an organization strategy, defining your main points before you start writing, etc. If he's really SJ this sort of scaffolding should feel like a safety net. If he hasn't been given these kinds of tools, no wonder he's frustrated!!!
    edcoaching

  6. #16
    Member Seraph's Avatar
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    As Recoleta suggests, I would also recommend organizational techniques such as graphic organizers. Another particularly helpful tool I like to use is a reverse outline. After your brother writes the essay, have him describe to you in 1-2 sentences what his main point is. If he can do that, then great. Then go through paragraph by paragraph and ask him to explain what each one is doing.

    Looking at the reverse outline can be very helpful. It helps me to realize strengths of my argument, and areas that need work or are irrelevant.

    Scope of the paper may be another trouble spot. For a one-page paper, he has very little room to work. If he's trying to go solve world hunger it won't work out. If the scope is too big, then the paper will be full of too many ideas (making organization difficult) and won't flow well. Make sure he always keeps his main goal in mind while writing, as this makes for clear and understandable writing.

    For the math and physics problems, it may seem basic but familiarity is all there is to it. Practice, practice, practice. For example: In my chemistry class, I understand the necessary reactions dealing with alcohols/thiols/ethers/epoxides, but if I am faced with an unfamiliar situation then I stumble. I have to do numerous problems to become accustomed to how these reactions work in applications. This is a tough part- slogging through the work. It takes a lot of motivation, and I often have trouble getting down to work if I don't see it being useful.

    He needs to become more self-confident in the areas of math and science to succeed. This can come through a number of things, but I'd suggest familiarity. The more familiar he is with the material, the more comfortable he will feel with it. It really is up to him to do the work though.

  7. #17
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recoleta View Post
    Ok, as a literacy teacher, this is what I would do for his English paper if you feel the foundation is not there. First of all, what kind of paper is he writing: research/informational, persuasive, fiction, etc? This does make a difference. If his basic problem is with organization, I'd try to explain and use a graphic organizer with him. Here's a good site that has all kinds: General - Graphic Organizers
    I'll give that one a try. Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by edcoaching View Post
    My approach might be, "I'll bail you out on this one, but the next assignment we do together from the start." Then you can influence focusing before beginning, finding only the relevant facts for a 1-page paper, finding an organization strategy, defining your main points before you start writing, etc. If he's really SJ this sort of scaffolding should feel like a safety net. If he hasn't been given these kinds of tools, no wonder he's frustrated!!!
    *nods* I'll try that for english. Do you have suggestions for math and science? Here's where I have most difficult with finding structure. I try to teach him one method of solving the problem. But there's exceptions where I automatically picked another starting place and I couldn't tell him when to use either one. You can say these strategies comes with experience but he doesn't have the time to learn... not while keeping up with his assignments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seraph View Post
    For the math and physics problems, it may seem basic but familiarity is all there is to it. Practice, practice, practice. For example: In my chemistry class, I understand the necessary reactions dealing with alcohols/thiols/ethers/epoxides, but if I am faced with an unfamiliar situation then I stumble. I have to do numerous problems to become accustomed to how these reactions work in applications. This is a tough part- slogging through the work. It takes a lot of motivation, and I often have trouble getting down to work if I don't see it being useful.

    He needs to become more self-confident in the areas of math and science to succeed. This can come through a number of things, but I'd suggest familiarity. The more familiar he is with the material, the more comfortable he will feel with it. It really is up to him to do the work though.
    The question is on how to condense the process. I would like to start from the beginning basics again, but that'll leave him no time with studying for other things. He takes his time with a lot of things.

  8. #18
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukepd View Post
    Maybe he just isn't academic? You can't be something you're not :S
    Word!!!

    My INTP father royally screwed my brilliantly, artistically-inclined ISFP sister, by getting frustrated by her lack of care and inability to excel in standard academic courses and berating her preference and passions for the fine arts.

    Let individuals pursue what they are passionate about, for people tend to excel in the things that truly interest them.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #19
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Word!!!

    My INTP father royally screwed my brilliantly, artistically-inclined ISFP sister, by getting frustrated by her lack of care and inability to excel in standard academic courses and berating her preference and passions for the fine arts.

    Let individuals pursue what they are passionate about, for people tend to excel in the things that truly interest them.
    Problem:
    We've asked... he doesn't know what he's passionate about.

    He said he likes computer modelling. But he's not going to be about to make much of a living doing that. He needs to expand on it. The most sensible option would be 3D animation etc... but that tends to require programming (computer science degree). He freaks out when faced with math.

  10. #20
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Problem:
    We've asked... he doesn't know what he's passionate about.

    He said he likes computer modelling. But he's not going to be about to make much of a living doing that. He needs to expand on it. The most sensible option would be 3D animation etc... but that tends to require programming (computer science degree). He freaks out when faced with math.
    How old is he?

    Also, how close are you guys with him?

    Perhaps he doesn't feel comfortable divulging his true passions with you?

    Where do you live, by the way?

    What is your ethnic and cultural background, and is he naturally rebellious?

    What is your family situation, how many siblings, and what order, etc,?

    I am currently taking a class on adolescence, so I could perhaps offer some advice.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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