Loving God?

[sassafrassquatch]

Sass, it would appear Kiddo's saying (and I agree) that "by their fruits shall ye recognize them". So just step back and see, look at the results of their beliefs, what behaviour they 'spawn', and you'll probably find it's pretty easy to tell the people who've left the path...

You're assuming that God is good and wants us to be kind and loving. How do I know that's what he wants? I've never spoken to God so I have now way of knowing that you're right. As I've said before, when I look at the state of things I don't see evidence of a god who is kind and loving as I understand the words.

To quote Gandalf (heheh): "to break a thing in order to understand it is to leave the path of wisdom"

More Intuitive bigotry. Wisdom is not for the Sensor, he is a Philistine.

If I want to understand something I'll take it apart, examine the pieces, see how they work together and reassemble it.

Fuck this bullshit. Why does your god only speak in ways that appeal to Intuitives and Feelers? I told you before, I need things to be tangible, concrete, simple. I don't want these fucking riddles. If there is a god I want to know what the fuck is going on and what his plan is.

IMO the ones who are most vocal about what people should believe and think and how they should behave... well, they're putting their energy into the wrong thing. The ones who are pretty quiet and subtle about their faith and only talk about it when asked, in a Q&A format rather than proselytizing; the people who are easy to get along with, accepting and non-judgemental, helpful (but not interfering/busybodying - they're not doing it for themselves, see?), peaceful, joyful, humble and gentle - well, those will be the ones you can learn from. The ones who teach without even knowing they're giving a lesson. They're putting their energy into the right thing: doing their best to ensure that they behave right.

More assumptions. Those people are peaceful, happy and kind so the must be right. That doesn't prove anything.

If there is a god and he has anything to say to me I want him to come down here physically so everyone can see him. I want to be sure I'm not experiencing a delusion or some kind of brain thing. I want him to speak to me audibly in plain English.

People like me are the ones who read their religious texts literally. It's the word of God right in there hands. They can read it and know what God wants for them. But they're not allowed to do that. The bible is meant to be taken allegorically and read in very Intuitive ways. Their religion isn't the one true path. Nothing is certain and everything is open to interpretation.

All very disconcerting to people like me.

I can see you perspective. You need some tangible benefits to spirituality.

No, no, no. Not tangible benefits. I need tangible proof that God is even real, I need a tangible, concrete, simple explanation, straight from God himself, about what is going on and what he's doing.

1. It is proven that people who have spirituality on average have better physical and mental health than those who don't.

Dealing with reality without an imaginary friend is tough. It's called being and adult.

2. Spirituality is a socializing agent, which means it brings people together and gets them to work in a way that is ideal for cooperation.

Religion? Cooperate?

3, People with spirituality can better cope with stressful and traumatic experiences.

"Plane crashes. 127 dead, 1 survivor." It's a miracle.
"Women brutally raped and mutilated in Darfur." It's ok, God has a plan.

Fuck that shit.

4. Spiritualities provide a set of values, by which people can base their moral and ethical beliefs.

Like how people believe it's morally wrong to be gay because of their values?

There is nothing wrong with picking a spirituality just so you can enjoy the benefits. As I said, it doesn't matter what you believe, only how you practice those beliefs.

You still haven't provided me with any proof that any of this is true. This is all just your opinion. Everyone has an opinion. It proves nothing. How do I know you're right?

 

[substitute]

If you live your life always holding back to what you think are the limits, you're limiting your true potential. Only once you pass the breaking point will you ever be able to truly say you're doing everything as good as you can, since you now know your true limits.

You're saying that to an ENTP, limit pusher extraordinaire?

No, I meant breaking things beyond repair or more, destroying them. I think some of the more aggressively Evangelical/Fundamentalist types of people sorta study the Bible to death, and thereby sorta lose sight of the whole point of learning all that stuff by failing to actually act it out in their own lives, putting emphasis instead on persuading others to. It just gives me an image of 'breaking' the faith or philosophy in their quest to understand and then spread it.



Sass... I think you've misunderstood me pretty much completely... sorry. I'm a bit baffled about how you managed to extract a meaning of 'intuitive bigotry' and saying sensors can't be wise from what I said... it was so far from my intention that I've no idea how any possibility of it being taken that way crept in... and I wasn't saying that if people are happy therefore they're right, I was saying more that if a person is genuinely happy and makes others happy including you, and does no harm but much good, without being a super annoying goodie-two-shoes, then they must be doing something right internally in order for it to result in that behaviour. I'm also a bit taken aback by the strength of your objection to that.

It sorta seems to me like you miss the point of MBTI... I don't see Ne as my dominant function as a reason to demand that everything in the world and universe come onto an intuitive plane for my convenience... I see it as a reason to develop my non-preferred functions and become more balanced, so that I can adapt to see the different aspects of the universe, appreciate and operate eventually on all the levels to some degree.

I've recently realized that a basic level of mechanics would be a useful thing for me to grasp and acquire, but I know this can't be done through Ne alone, and that I have to grapple with Sensate functions in order to do this. So that's what I'm trying to do. I'm not standing over a pile of car parts with my nose in the air, demanding that they perform a song and dance routine that instantly enables me to grasp the Tao of Mechanics and therefore not have to do any study or sensory interaction with the cars in order to be able to fix anything that goes wrong, instantly, with the power of my intuitive perception. I'm acknowledging that my difficulty with mechanics is due to my own limitations and weaknesses.

It seems like you're sorta being a sensor bigot, like anything that needs to be understood intuitively is therefore not valid and stupid and you won't give it any credit until it alters itself to your preferences... sorry that's just not how I've ever seen reality... it's my job to step up to the mark and raise myself to the things I can't as yet understand, so that I can one day. It's not everything else's job to lower itself to accommodate my current limitations.

 

[hungrypossum]

I find your take on homosexuals to be exceedingly primitive and less about your "religious" personality than a clear attempt to use religion to disguise bigotry.

I grew up in a Mandarin speaking family and we never had philosophical discussions, I must say that I spoke in the most simplistic manner all the time! My mother never went to school, I simplified everything so my parents would understand the point I'm trying to make. It was difficult to explain to Mum the "North-South flow" media hypothesis, but I did it in the end by drawing 2 rivers of running water across the globe! Sure it is primitive, but it works for universality. The prime minister of my country is a very educated and well esteemed man, yet all his examples to the nation consists of little stories. Why? So that the average housewife in my country would understand. Till you told me that, I unwittingly have been playing along to such a system, (I have lived in Asia 19 years) to which I'm glad I've just woken up and discovered something new about myself! In fact, it took me a while to make this post because I had spent so much time here at wonder of what "primitive" meant! And interestingly enough, this must be why other Asians around me are usually telling stories rather than using crisp, concrete words with great meaning

If you have read everything I said, then perhaps you'll find that what I wrote will not make sense literally, but metaphorically. Indeed, I write very simplistically and with visual examples all the time, I do not know how to do so otherwise. (thankfully I got over media research papers) Also, I did not understand the word bigotry till I looked it up 5 mins ago.

and since I've come to know this word means "stubborn and incomplete intolerance of any belief" and I assume this refers to either me or you mean Christians. In reply, neither I not Christians are God, we are constantly making the effort to be a follower of Jesus. So everyone of us would be at different levels with our relationship with him. So everyone else can point at a Christian and say OMG YOU SINNED! YOU're CONDEMNED! But God always forgives, even if we too, turn our backs on him.

Also, if you really did believe in something, you would not believe in something thats the opposite of what you believe in. While I used to watch yaoi for instance, I stopped it because of my belief that it is not honourable to this wonderful human body God created for us. So when I do find myself struggling with such, I try to see these people as children. And it always make me stop....and feel really sad.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

It seems like you're sorta being a sensor bigot

Hey, if your god won't speak to me on my level that's his problem, not mine. He's the infinite being, not me.

 

[hungrypossum]

I want to answer you SO bad Sassa. You know I WANNA!
I've made enough long rambling posts as it is already. I WANT to email or PM you.

 

[unsung truth]

Hey, if your god won't speak to me on my level that's his problem, not mine. He's the infinite being, not me.

You have the potential to be greater... the level that you claim to be at is not what you can be, maybe if you pursued expanding your intuition or thinking about these subjects from a different perspective you may realize what we mean.

Of course I don't claim that we are right in any concrete, tangible manner, it's more of a stringing together of philosophies and emotions; yet philosophies and emotions are a derivative of the tangible so there must be some truth in them


btw substitute i really liked your post about learning from the example of those who put their energy into the right place... i like to think of myself as one of those people (most of the time), yet I dunno how many people notice my subtle application of energy, but the ones who have noticed have sorta tried to push me to talk more/be more open (especially my teachers)

 

[Kiddo]

and since I've come to know this word means "stubborn and incomplete intolerance of any belief" and I assume this refers to either me or you mean Christians. In reply, neither I not Christians are God, we are constantly making the effort to be a follower of Jesus. So everyone of us would be at different levels with our relationship with him. So everyone else can point at a Christian and say OMG YOU SINNED! YOU're CONDEMNED! But God always forgives, even if we too, turn our backs on him.

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own. Night was suggesting that you have a negative attitude towards all homosexuals and you use your religious beliefs to hide that fact.

I don't know whether or not that is true, but you have made it clear that you view homosexuals as incapable of of loving one another the same way heterosexuals do and you have suggested that it is a corruption of the body to be a homosexual. And now it seems that you are suggesting homosexuals are children deserving of pity. These are all views which would be considered crude by most educated Westerners.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

You have the potential to be greater... the level that you claim to be at is not what you can be, maybe if you pursued expanding your intuition or thinking about these subjects from a different perspective you may realize what we mean.

Of course I don't claim that we are right in any concrete, tangible manner, it's more of a stringing together of philosophies and emotions; yet philosophies and emotions are a derivative of the tangible so there must be some truth in them

Holy Mother Mary's virgin asshole...

Why does it have to be such a big fucking mystery?

I really don't see why this has to be so difficult.

God could just pop in, say, "Hey, check it out, I'm real. I've written a short essay detailing my purposes wrt life, the universe and everything. If you have any questions, here's my cell number. Later, peeps."

But no. It has to be this big mystery with god and his believers whispering sweet nothings to each other. Why won't god speak to skeptics? I've asked over and over again but no one will give me anything resembling an answer.

 

[unsung truth]

fatal flaws in that logic: God created universe under laws of physics, hence it would break the laws for him to just pop in front of you...that would be pretty damn hypocritical



i guess for me, the biggest thing that has told me that there is a loving creator is my own existence, I have the ability to change my life, take things from a positive or a negative perception, and get incredible insights into certain topics, especially philosophical questions. Those "ah ha!" moments when everything has been so eloquently solved out in an abstract manner and when all the dots connect, I get overwhelming joy, thats just one of the examples as to why i believe.

I dunno if that helps

 

[sassafrassquatch]

Tian xiz shou you de ren dou gai si!

 

[SolitaryPenguin]

Okay, now ya lost me.

 

[sassafrassquatch]

fatal flaws in that logic: God created universe under laws of physics, hence it would break the laws for him to just pop in front of you...that would be pretty damn hypocritical

Should he take the motherfucking elevator instead?

 

[Ender]

Too bad the time line in Genesis is a crock. *Wanders off to the museum to look at the Dinosaurs*

 

[hungrypossum]

IM NOT CANTONESE! (i think u were trying to say something that sounded cantonese)

Then i didnt make my point clear its not like heterosexuals love one another any better, look at war and how everyone is trying to poke each others eyeball out!

and oh oh oh, RESIDENT EVIL 4! MWAHAHAHA! I'm obsessed with it

 

[substitute]

Because Sassa, it would defeat the point. It would take away most of the benefits. Points and benefits you can never understand or experience until you get there. And if you're absolutely firmly decided on the pointlessness of doing that, and on your refusal to do that, then why not just get on with your life? Why rant and go on about it?

Honestly, many people in this thread have gone to a lot of effort to meet you more than half way, and you just have no intention of budging an inch or even moving from your armchair.

You remind me very much of a friend of mine who doesn't see any validity in the concept of 'no pain, no gain', and has gone so far through 45 years of life, demanding that the best secrets, experiences and joys of the universe land on his plate, gratis - to no avail. So far, the universe seems to have been strangely unaccommodating.

At least half of the benefits of spirituality are gained/realized through the process of a journey of faith. And the other half are intensified and magnified tenfold when placed in experiential context with the others. There is nothing 'mysterious' in that. There is nothing nebulous or mysterious about saying that there are some things you can only know from experience, and the most vital experience that enables you to know and understand faith, is the process. The journey. If you had a kid and loved that kid more than anything, you wouldn't expect someone who had no kids to fully comprehend the level of bonding and love you felt for your kid. So I don't expect someone who refuses to even begin on that journey to fully understand the benefits I gain from having gone along it as far as I have.

You have the potential to be greater... the level that you claim to be at is not what you can be, maybe if you pursued expanding your intuition or thinking about these subjects from a different perspective you may realize what we mean.

Yeah that's what I was gonna say, too. But my best friend is an ISTJ and it never seems to move him either, the idea that any benefit can be gained from changing anything, even just his vantage point... haha... no! If he can't see something, then that thing should move closer to him, dammit!

I find it an extremely challenging and alien worldview, in which he sees no benefit in refocusing and has no apparent desire to grow; he doesn't seem to think he either can or should ever become more than he is now. That seems kinda diametrically opposite to my worldview, so it's hard for me to know where to begin dialogue with it.

And he also seems to see it as some sort of clever rebellious move, an assertion of independence. It seems so funny, like he's standing there in the doctor's room folding his arms and refusing to take his medicine because he won't trust the doctor that it doesn't taste bad... and he's thinking he's so smart because the doctor can't make him take it... he really doesn't see that the only one that benefits or loses out from the taking or non-taking, is himself!!

It seems to me such a sorta 'cut off your nose to spite your face' manoeuvre, to comical proportions... haha...

Sassa - If you wanna see something, you've gotta go to where it is. If you won't do that, and the 'mountain' ain't gonna come to you (since I don't think you're in any position to give orders to God), then just stop whining and expecting the people who've seen it to somehow transplant a solely experiential knowledge into your head by words alone, stop blaming them and the thing you can't see for your inability to see it, and get on with your life in atheistic bliss, secure in the knowledge that you put one over on that stupid bearded bastard up in the sky and all his stupid, mindless little robots.

btw substitute i really liked your post

Thanks! I try... nice to know it's not entirely unappreciated!

 

[unsung truth]

i think we all get that the bible cant be taken literally... (ive mentioned that b4), its more about the metaphors and the meanings behind the stories (IMO).


elevator? i dont think you're even taking yourself seriously right now...
I think you said in a previous post that you're ST and you need something concrete, yet you insist on some supernatural occurrences so that you may see God which would defy your senses in terms of the laws of physics and the reality around us. Perhaps a better approach would be exploring the connections between philosophy, the natural sciences and your personal thoughts/feelings.

I was just reminded of a program I saw on tv talking about the creation of the universe. It essentially outlined the big bang theory, saying that Einstein's theories lead to the conclusion that there was a beginning to the universe, and that it was most likely a condensed ball of super-heated mass. The four fundamental forces were (weak, strong, gravitational, and electro-magnetic) were theoretically one force until they split apart when the ball started expanding. Then as the particles began to cool they started assembling into neutrons, protons, electrons, then atoms (basic elements; hydrogen and helium). Those elements coalesced into stars which established fusion to create the other elements.

Then various stars collapsed/exploded, those particles then coalesced into planets and new stars. Out of all these systems, one planet around one star created sustained, intelligent life. Then when it finished one of the scientists said that, understanding where we come from and that we are so closely related despite all of the factions we create between us, now that is something truly special.

For me, to think that all of these events occurred spontaneously out of nothingness seems extraneous, I think that there mustve been some sort of force that started this process; be it God, some form of energy, nature, I don't know for sure in any tangible sense, but I am grateful for it.

 

[substitute]

Nice post unsung... I was just also gonna add that I've never been a "Bible Christian", and that my faith and love of God has pretty much come independently of any Bible stuff. Much later in my journey of faith I began to appreciate the Gospels more and look into their deeper meanings and mysteries, and found it very rewarding to unravel them piece by piece, always something else to learn... but by the time I got to that point I already had half a lifetime of journey under my belt, during which a love of God was developed within me that had nothing to do with decoding mysterious Bible passages. Like I say, I only began to take the Bible even vaguely seriously quite recently.

 

[hungrypossum]

DINOSAURS I LOVE EM! And i love playing Jurassic Park Sims! it mentions God made beasts but not what kind.

it says that a 1000 days to men is like 1 day to God in the bible! So God took 7 days to make the earth. It doesnt say if its dog days, human days, God days.

 

[MerkW]

For me, to think that all of these events occurred spontaneously out of nothingness seems extraneous, I think that there mustve been some sort of force that started this process; be it God, some form of energy, nature, I don't know for sure in any tangible sense, but I am grateful for it.

These days, many (perhaps most?) theoretical physicists (at least the M-theory advocates) attribute the cause of the big bang to the enormous release of energy from the collision of two membranes holding parallel universes.

 

[unsung truth]

umm here might be a good place to start:
Stephen Hawking, The Big Bang, and God

Amazon.com: The Third Jesus: The Christ We Cannot Ignore: Books: Deepak Chopra
-havent read this, but it seems good

maybe research a bit into the different religions, don't always take the concrete view that is established by the writer, taking a different perspective on what is stated can create great ideas.


As for the the universe membranes colliding... I haven't heard about that, but seems interesting. Still doesn't disprove God, might prove it even more so considering the membranes had to be established somehow. All we understand seems to be within the realm of physics, now that begs the question: what created physics?